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I maintain Autoit project used for automated testing of swing app. Those tests have now about 70 files. It's get pretty hard to maintain all this code without following some "best practices" I'm trying to create as much functions as possible (because of duplicate code) and constants (frequent changes) bud it doesn't seem enough.
I have generally this types of functions:
Some general functions (insert text with logging, select or read from combobox.. )
Some screen specific functions (fill one form.. )
Some data/logic function - testing of app logic and data processing
Test case functions - combines previous 3 to implement some test scenario
AutoIt does not have classes => no inheritance => OOP principles are hard to aplicate ( :D clearly)
Does somebody have some experince with larger applications written in AutoIt? My opinion is, that AutoIt is for scripts < 500 lines and it wasn't good choice for this big project.
It's a shame, that AutoIt doesn't have some useful IDE.
AutoIt developers want to make sure that any functions written in AutoIt that are part of the core library (in short: UDFs) are subject to a certain code style. You can find this standard here: http://www.autoitscript.com/autoit3/udfs/UDF_Standards.htm Many programmers in the community write all AutoIt code in this standard.
On the subject of IDE. SciTE is a time-tested code editor, but as IDE it performs adequate. There are two other IDEs which are developed and maintained by the community:
A graphical debugger (F10 step next functionality) http://www.autoitscript.com/forum/topic/21834-graphical-autoit-debugger/
ISN AutoIt studio http://www.autoitscript.com/forum/topic/136766-isn-autoit-studio/
The last one is fairly new, but it looks extremely promising and it may work better for your project.
Finally, I have a note of warning. You say "OOP principles are hard to apply", but even as an OO programmer you should have a strong core idea of how to write non-OO code before you even learned OOP. Most OO languages are imperative at their core, so you should be an excellent imperative coder already. AutoIt is imperative as well.
A useful IDE will not solve your problems! But it will make them slightly easier to manage.
I don't know where you heard that AutoIt only performs well for scripts for under 500 lines, but every time you #include one of the default libraries you are adding ~10000 lines of code. If you can write proper code, you will build your own libraries without adding complexity to the rest of your code.
As AutoIt doesn't have (as you mentioned) the enabling characteristics of an OO language I think part of an answer here is to look at what AutoIt has and what paradigm best fits it. It's clear to me that AutoIt is a language meant to done using procedural programming methods. For me, it's actually a bit of fun to go back to those methods that way of thinking. My large programs end up, with an an emphasis on correctly defining computation modules, what is passed into the module (and returned). If you are severely missing OO benefits I think the next thing to focus on would be scoping -- trying to keep that as tight as possible.
As a final note, I think using the procedural programming techniques does usually end up creating a separate task of re-factoring after the functionality is up and running.
A place to start...but this was the dominant paradigm for decades
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Can any language be used to program in any paradigm? For example C doesn't have classes but s it is possible to program in OOP. There are some languages (such as assembly) I can't see using OOP in.
Yes, simply due to the fact you can implement an interpreter for your $favorite $paradigm in the host language.
Practically though, this is not feasible, efficient or right.
C++ is ultimately assembly, you just have a compiler to write the assembly for you from a nicer description. So sure you can do OOP in assembly, just as you can do OOP in C; it's just that a lot of the OO concepts end up being implemented with convention and programmer discipline rather than being forced by the structure of the language, with the result that huge classes of bugs become possible that your language tools probably won't be very good at helping you find.
Similar arguments follow for most paradigm/language mismatches. Lots of object-oriented programs have been written in C this way, so it can even be a somewhat practical thing to do, not just an academic matter.
It can be a little harder when what you want is to remove restrictions rather than add them.
In purity-enforced languages such as Haskell and Mercury you can't suddenly break out object-oriented style packets-of-encapsulated-mutable-state in the middle of arbitrary pure code (at least not without using "all bets are off" features like unsafePerformIO in Haskell or promise_pure in Mercury to lie to the compiler, at which point your program may well completely fail to work unless you can wrap a pure interface around the regions in which you do this). However you can write whole programs in procedural or object-oriented style in these languages, by never leaving the mechanism they use to do IO.
Likewise, if you consider the use of duck typing in dynamic languages to be a paradigm, it's pretty painful to get something similar in languages with static typing, but you can always find a way to represent your dynamic types as data. But you again find yourself doing thing with convention and reimplementation that you would get for free if you were really using a duck typing language.
I'm pretty sure it would be hard to find a language (usable for writing general purpose programs) that can't be adapted to write code in any paradigm you like. The adaptation may not produce very efficient code (sometimes it can though; adapting C or assembly to any paradigm can usually be made pretty much as efficient as if you had a language tuned for that paradigm), and it will almost certainly be horribly inefficient in terms of programmer time.
No, not all languages can be used to program in any paradigm. However, the more popular ones - python, c++, etc all allows you to chose how you want to program. Even php is adding OO support.
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I get the sense that AppleScript is more respected than AutoIt. I think that it's something you can put on your resume whereas AutoIt is not. Is that the case? Why is that? With AutoIt you can automate just about anything. Is that the case with AppleScript? With AppleScript can you make it detect arbitrary images on the screen like images in a web page?
AutoIt had a big role in getting me my current job. If you get an interview with a team of developers, bringing something new to the table is not a bad thing. Sure you are not going to find "AutoIt Developer Needed" in the want ads, but more companies need one then know it. My use of AutoIt has turned into something that sets me apart from other developers in my work.
Picking the right tool for the job is what matters and for some jobs that tool is undoubtedly AutoIt. Most developers would be excited to see something they don't know on the resume of an applicant. It tells you several things.
This person is going to bring something unique to the team.
This person is into programming because they surely didn't learn AutoIt from a required class to get their degree.
Most people who love development are going to want to talk about this odd language you know that they have never heard of. If you have some example code that would be a pain in another language you have a good shot at impressing them.
It worked for me. While you are not likely to work full time as an AutoIt developer, I use it several times a week in my work.
Both languages serve very different purposes. They both started out with similar goals in mind, but evolved differently over the years.
AutoIt has adapted GUIs and has become more of a general purpose scripting language. It also has a large following of developers that all contribute to the functionality of the language. Applescript focuses mostly on what AutoIt was originally designed for, automation.
What really separates them on this focus is that AutoIt interacts based on commands and properties of Windows, where as Applescript interacts based on commands and properties of the application it is automating. Applescript is more similar to OOP, where as AutoIt is a traditional procedural language.
Why one is more popular than the other? that is a difficult question. I actually learned about AutoIt years before I knew anything about Applescript, but that is because I worked primarily on Windows and Linux machines and rarely on Macs. It really isn't a fair comparison to say one is more popular than the other, as there is no common element between them.
Windows users will know AutoIt, Mac users will know Applescript.
What exactly are you asking here?
AppleScript is likely more widely known than AutoIt (I never heard of AutoIt and just had to look it up). Whether that means it's more "respected" or "you can put it on your resume" is entirely subjective.
The two seem to be very different things. For what reason are you comparing/contrasting them? If you're looking for which one to use for any given purpose, the first important factor would be the platform. They're designed to run on very different platforms.
There may be some things you can do in one that you can not do (at least natively or without great difficulty) in the other. The same is true of just about any drastically different programming/scripting tools/environments.
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I never worked with SAP solutions. I have a reasonable understanding of business, but no accounting background. How to learn ABAP on examples that will simultaneously enlighten me with the "way of SAP"?
It doesn't have to be a deep knowledge, just something to start for somebody who was in the world of Python and C# but needs understand how SAP world works.
(this is not a duplicate of "Learning SAP-ABAP")
Learning ABAP is not particularly difficult if you know other programming languages.
Let's first distinguish between ABAP and ABAP OO. ABAP is the old, procedural language and ABAP OO is its extension with classes.
ABAP has the usual control structures, like if-then-else or loops. Its syntax takes a bit of getting used to (I found especially annoying the part about putting or not putting spaces before parentheses), but is definitely doable.
There are some structures you don't find in C++ and C#, for example the grouping of functions in function groups, which have their own local variables, so if you call something that is in a different function group, things can get messy.
But generally, if you understand scope and namespaces, it shouldn't be a problem.
I found ABAP OO pretty straightforward compared to ABAP, because it basically only added the classes / packages that I knew from C++ / C# before.
How to learn them, I would propose the following for someone who is new to ABAP and wants a DEEP knowledge of it (see later the more functional aspects):
-buy yourself a proper ABAP book, e.g. something from SAP Press
-don't read it just yet
-start with a web course or a simple book, along the lines of "learn ABAP in 24 hours"
-start coding
-as you are coding, you will inevitably ask yourself: "how does this and that work? is the PERFORM using pass-by-reference or pass-by-value for passing the arguments?" Look those questions up in your proper ABAP book
-probably after a few months, you will be familiar enough with the language that you can read through the book without falling asleep
Just a caveat: It IS a useful skill to know ABAP programming, but even if you don't consider the other technologies SAP consists of (like workflow or PDF Forms, that don't have anything to do with ABAP), there are still a lot of frameworks that differ in their logic. So just like even though you know C++, knowing the Win32 framework does not mean you can start banging out code that runs under UNIX, knowing ABAP does not mean that you can work productively in a specific module right away. Unfortunately, SAP modules tend to use different frameworks, some of them more reused than others.
If you do not want a deep knowledge of ABAP, but want to understand the SAP modules functionally, you should consider using the products themselves in addition to programming and learning about the functional aspects.
I'm afraid there is really no quick way to learn how the "SAP World" functions; you need to have a bit of technical, functional and also architectural knowledge for that and since the modules are so vastly different from all those aspects, it takes a lot of time until you can have a vast overview of everything. But even with technical and some functional knowledge you would be well on your way; as they say, "in SAP, nobody expects you to know everything".
There are at least two different sets of issues you should be looking for:
Knowledge of ABAP as a programming language
Knowledge of the "Business Domain" that your writing your software for and its implementation in SAP - tables, forms, programs, reports etc, (and each of the modules such as FI HR etc. is more than a normal person can usually be proficient in)
(1) gives you general knowledge on how to write a program, read and update the database, and maybe write a GUI. But the programs that you write will almost always be in the context of (2), so you will need to know that as well.
If you want to get started, it is best to have some general knowledge of the ABAP language, the business domain can't really be learned from a book. Actual project work is much more helpful.
Start by downloading one of the netweaver trial systems from sdn.sap.com (choose one of the ABAP trial systems).
For reference you have the ABAP manuals online here (the reference documents also have a lot of small example programs). For more example code you can enter transaction SE38 (report editor) and search for programs starting with BC or starting with DEMO (put BC* in the name box and press F4).
since you asked me to respond to this question as well. I was hired as a sap-java-developer because there are very very few on the market, even though I didn't know anything about sap java before I entered. I got advice from my co-workers and learned as fast as possible to become productive. It wasnt such a big deal in the end.
I'm one year into the business now but I'm still in a newbie-state. The sap technology environment is huge. SDN (Sap Developer Network) is my best friend whenever I'm stuck.
It definitely helps when you end up in a company with sap-knowledge because you dont have to build up all systems from scratch and you have the licenses for the various sap products at hand. Most trial versions from sap just wont do the trick on the long run.
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I'm at a stage where I am forced to learn Lua, so do you have any suggestions on how I do this? I don't have a lot of experience with any other scripting languages than PHP.
So, some suggestions on "head start Lua"-pages?
EDIT
As an addition to the wonderful tutorial pages, could you please suggest any "programs" I could make that will help me learn Lua? Imagine I would want to learn Pointers in C++, I'd make a Linked List. I want to touch the basics in Lua but meanwhile be open to pretty advanced stuff.
First of all work your way through the Programming in Lua, it should take you a day or two to get the gist of Lua.
However I can tell you right away on your first time through ignore coroutines and metatables, they are very powerful, but take a while to grasp. First learn the syntax, scoping (same as PHP luckily for you) and the standard libraries.
After that go back to coroutines and metatables, read them try them and by the third time through you might get it. Unless you have a very good CS background these are complex topics
Edit: The book is free online == website. Besides it is the best tutorial out there on Lua, everyone learns Lua with it.
Also: If you're purpose is Lua for World of Warcraft (probably not but just in case) you can check out this tutorial
And: Here is a tips and tricks thread on StackOverflow, might help give you some ideas of what to expect from Lua
Suggested Programs/Exercises:
Since you're initially looking at Lua for web development try to understand and improve the Data Description example in PIL. It'll give you a few good ideas and a nice feel for the power or Lua.
Then you might want to try out playing with the Data Structures chapter, although Lua has a single complex data-type, the Table, that chapter will show you Lua-like ways to make a table do anything you need.
Finally once you begin to grok metatables you should design a class system (yes with Lua you decide how your class system works). I'm sure everyone that knows Lua has made a dozen class systems, a good chapter to get you started on a class system is Object-Oriented Programming
And if you got time and know C or something like that (C# and Java included) try extending an application with Lua, but that'll take a week or two to do
Funny to see all these elaborate lists (though they are certainly correct). Back in 2002, I read about the first 20+ pages of the Lua reference manual, and started using it. It really is that simple. Lua (and ANSI C) are of the few languages that really fit in one's mind all at once - and stay there. For the others, at least I need to constantly do some relearning.
Be aware that getting to think in Lua will take time. I think mine was 6 months or so. When coming from C/C++, we tend to solve problems in certain ways. Lua might offer better means (i.e. via use of tables) but it takes a while to start seeing those. This transition to a higher abstraction level is similar to the Assembler->C shift in the 1980's. Many people still coded a while in C as if it only were a portable assembler.
There is also a large body of projects related to Lua at LuaForge.
If you happen to use Windows as your day-to-day platform, then I would recommend getting the Lua for Windows package as a nice starting point. It includes a wide array of useful modules all prebuilt and installed together with the Lua interpreter.
After your first pass through PiL and the reference manual, you will want to read Lua Programming Gems which is currently only available in a paper edition.
<plug> Do consider buying the books through the associate links at Lua's books page or LuaForge to support the projects. </plug>
Edit: As for ideas for programming projects where Lua is suited, look for problems where the table provides leverage. Tables are central to Lua, since even the global variables are just fields in a table. Tables can be indexed by values of any data type except nil, but have an especially efficient implementation if used as arrays.
One quirk that trips up people coming from a C-like background is that all things in Lua are naturally indexed starting from 1. Strings are indexed from 1, arrays start at 1, etc. Don't worry about it too much, there is nothing wrong with using a[0], but the length of the array given by #a is defined assuming that the array began with a[1].
Another quirk is that functions don't really have names. They are first class values that are usually stored in some variable that has a name. Syntax sugar makes it look like they have names, but that is just a convenience.
Metatables are a particularly Lua-ish feature of tables (and other types, but that is a really advanced topic) that are the basis for most of the schemes for doing object-oriented things in Lua.
Closures and true tail calls are other features of Lua that aren't often found in small scripting languages that can really make some idioms easy to implement.
In addition to the suggestions above, there's also the Lua wiki which is well worth a browse. There are a tremendous number of code snippets and small recipes there which can be useful.
I wrote a short quick-start guide to Lua for people using it on a project I was working on.
If you are familiar with other scripting languages it may get you up and running quickly.
The docs on Lua.org are very good and should cover most everything else you need. Lua is a pretty small language and can be learned fairly quickly.
This is a pretty general recommendation, but if you want to get started in a new programming language as a software engineer, it's fun to start doing the problems found at Project Euler in your new programming language. I've been doing this with Python recently and found it to be inspiring and bring a lot of enthusiasm to the coding.
You could install World of Warcraft and make a mod for that (it uses Lua). Actually that's probably a bad idea.
Maybe try to integrate Lua into a .NET application (assuming you are a C# programmer) and do something 'fun' with it:
Using Lua with C#
Or just browse lua.org
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Has anyone here given the Fantom programming language a whirl? (pun intended).
My first impression:
I like the ability to have the code run on either the .NET or Java VM.
The syntax is nice and clean and does not try anything fancy.
I have a belief that "the library is the language" and the developers of Fan believe that their USP is their APIs:
But getting a language to run on both Java and .NET is the easy part - in fact there are many solutions to this problem. The hard part is getting portable APIs. Fan provides a set of APIs which abstract away the Java and .NET APIs. We actually consider this one of Fan's primary benefits, because it gives us a chance to develop a suite of system APIs that are elegant and easy to use compared to the Java and .NET counter parts.
Any other thoughts, first impressions, pros and cons?
It looks very inspired by Ruby. It says that it's RESTful but I don't see how exactly. Compare with boo, which is more mature yet similar in many ways (its syntax is Python inspired, though).
The design decisions to keep generics and namespaces very limited are questionable.
I think their explanation sums it up:
"The primary reason we created Fan is
to write software that can seamlessly
run on both the Java VM and the .NET
CLR. The reality is that many software
organizations are committed to one or
the other of these platforms."
It doesn't look better than all other non-JVM/.NET languages. In the absence of any information about them (their blog is just an error page), I see no reason why they would necessarily get this righter than others. Every language starts out fairly elegant for the set of things it was designed for (though I see some awkwardness in the little Fan code I looked at just now) -- the real question is how well it scales to completely new things, and we simply don't know that yet.
But if your organization has a rule that "everything must run on our VM", then it may be an acceptable compromise for you.
You're giving up an awful lot just for VM independence. For example, yours is the first Fan question here on SO -- a couple orders of magnitude fewer than Lisp.
For what problem is Fan the best solution? Python and Ruby can already run on both VMs (or neither), have big communities and big libraries, and seem to be about the same level of abstraction, but are far more mature.
I have never heard of Fan until a couple of weeks ago. From the web site, it is about one year old so still pretty young and unproven. There are a couple of interesting points however: First the language is tackling the problem of concurrency by providing an actor model (similar to erlang) and by supporting immutable objects. Second, the object follows the example of Scala with type inference. Type inference allows the programmer to omit type declarations but have it computed by the compiler providing the advantage of short and cleaner code as in a dynamically type language while preserving the efficiency of a statically type language. And last, it seems like a very fast language, nearly as fast as Java and really close or beating the second fastest language on the JM: scala. Benchmark showing the performance can be found at http://www.slideshare.net/michael.galpin/performance-comparisons-of-dynamic-languages-on-the-java-virtual-machine?type=powerpoint.
This is very interesting.
Java (or C#) was created in order to eliminate Platform dependency by creating a JVM (or CLR) that will compile the code into a specific machine code at run time.
Now , There is a languege which is Virtual Machine independent? umm .... what the hell?!?!
Again , this is a very interesting topic , That might be the future...:) going to one universal single languege
I think it looks like a great language feature-wise, but I'm not sure how useful it is. I don't think it is all that useful to target .NET and JVM. Java is already cross-platform, and .NET is too, with Mono. By targeting two VMs, you have to use only the APIs that are available on both. You can't use any of the great native APIs that are available for Java and .NET. I can't imagine that their API is anywhere near as complete as either Java's of .NET's.