When to use [self.obj message] vs [obj message] [duplicate] - objective-c

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Closed 11 years ago.
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When to access properties with 'self'
In Objective-C on iOS, what is the (style) difference between “self.foo” and “foo” when using synthesized getters?
For example sake, I have a #property named obj and I #synthesize it. So when do I need to use [self.obj message] vs [obj message] in my implementation class.

Using self, the getter method will be called. Thus, any additional logic in this getter method is executed. This is especially useful when instance variables are lazy loaded through their getters.
I myself try to use self most of the time. Lazy loading is just an example, another thing is that with self, subclasses may override the getter to get different results.
Using self to set a variable is even more useful. It will trigger KVO notifications and handle memory management automatically (when properly implemented, of course)

Here are two great tutorials that cover this issue well:
Understanding your (Objective-C) self
When to use properties & dot notation

When synthesize a property, the compiler declare a related ivar for you, in default, the ivar is the same as property name. I recommend use self.obj always to keep code cleaner, and avoid some potential bugs.
And I suggest you follow the good practice from Apple, #synthesize obj=_obj, the ivar will become _obj, when you mean to use property, this style force you to write self.obj, directly call obj will be error since the ivar is _obj.
Edit: automatically creating ivar for property is only in modern Objective-C runtime, it's safe in iOS SDK 4.0 and Mac OS X 10.6 above.
http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/ObjectiveC/Chapters/ocProperties.html%23//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP30001163-CH17-SW1
For #synthesize to work in the legacy
runtime, you must either provide an
instance variable with the same name
and compatible type of the property or
specify another existing instance
variable in the #synthesize statement.
With the modern runtime, if you do not
provide an instance variable, the
compiler adds one for you.

In the future, please search the site. You'll often find that the exact question you're asking has been asked before:
difference between accessing a property via "propertyname" versus "self.propertyname" in objective-c?
When to access properties with 'self'
self.variable and variable difference
Objective-C: When to call self.myObject vs just calling myObject
iVar property, access via self?
Should I Use self Keyword (Properties) In The Implementation?
In Objective-C on iOS, what is the (style) difference between "self.foo" and "foo" when using synthesized getters?
When to use self on class properties?
... etc.

Related

Modern Objective-C (2013) and declaring ivars/using #property, #dynamic, and #synthesize

With the current version of Objective-C, what are the official standards and best practices for declaring ivars, using #property and #synthesize? There are a lot of posts and resources on the topic but most of them are fairly antiquated from a year or two ago. I recently learned to only declare ivars in a statement block in the implementation of a class so that the encapsulation principles of OOP aren't broken but is declaring ivars even necessary in this day and age? What would be a possible use case where doing:
#interface MyClass()
#property (nonatomic) NSString* data;
#end
#implementation MyClass{
#private
NSString* _data;
}
#end
is necessary? To further that, is it ever necessary to use #synthesize? My understanding is that using #property will auto-synthesize both the accessor methods as well as the backing ivars. I've done some experimentation and I noticed that when I don't declare NSString* _data', I can still access_data' in my class implementation. Does that mean that declaring ivars come down to a matter of style, up to the discretion of the programmer? Could I condense my code and remove all ivar declarations in the statement blocks in my implementation and just use #property in my private interface? If that's not the case, what are the advantages and disadvantages of explicitly declaring ivars?
Finally, #dynamic. From what I can gather, it's used to say to the compiler, "Hey compiler, don't auto-generate the accessor method and don't worry if you don't find an implementation for it, I'll provide one at runtime". Is that all #dynamic is used for or is there more to it?
I just want to clarify all these things because it seems like there's a lot of different opinions and that there's not necessarily one right answer. Plus as Objective-C grows and progresses, those answers will change so it'll be nice to have a concise and up-to-date guide. Thanks everyone!
(Also if there's anything that I could word better or make clearer, let me know)
EDIT:
In summary, what I'm asking is this:
1) Is declaring ivars with modern Objective-C necessary?
2) Can I achieve the same effects of declaring ivars and corresponding properties by just using #property?
3) What is #dynamic used for?
4) Can I completely forgo the use of #synthesize or is there a good use case for it?
Upvote and down vote as you see fit.
There's a lot to answer here. I'll break it down:
Declaring ivars
As you've correctly noted, modern versions of the compiler will synthesize backing instance variables for declared #properties. The exception to this is on 32-bit Macs, where the modern Objective-C runtime, including non-fragile instance variables, is not available. Assuming your application is not targeting 32-bit OS X, you don't need to explicitly declare the backing ivar for an #property.
If you still want to use an ivar directly, without a corresponding #property (something I consider a bad idea most of the time), you of course must still explicitly declare the ivar.
#dynamic
#dynamic is as you've said meant to tell the compiler "don't synthesize accessors for this property, I'll do it myself at runtime". It's not used all that often. One place it is used is in NSManagedObject subclasses, where if you declare a modeled property in the header, you don't want to compiler to complain that there's no implementation of accessors for that property, nor do you want it to generate accessors itself. NSManagedObject generates accessors for modeled properties at runtime. The story is similar for custom CALayer subclasses.
#synthesize
#synthesize explicitly tells the compiler to synthesize accessor methods, and (on iOS and 64-bit Mac) a corresponding ivar for the specified property. There are three main cases where you still need to use it:
32-bit Mac apps.
If you've written your own custom setter and getter (or just getter for readonly properties). In this case, the compiler won't synthesize accessors because it sees yours. However, it also won't synthesize the backing ivar. So, you must use #synthesize someProperty = _someProperty;, to tell the compiler to synthesize an ivar. It still won't synthesize accessor methods of course. Alternatively, you can explicitly declare a backing ivar. I favor using #synthesize in this case.
If you want to use a different name for the property's backing ivar than the default (property name with an added underscore prefix). This is rare. The main case I can think of for using it is when transitioning existing, older code, that includes direct ivar access and where the ivars are not underscore-prefixed.
Best current practice seems to be to use properties for all ivars placing the property either in the .h file if they are to be exposed and in the .m file in a class extension if local to the class.
No #synthesize is needed unless the ivar needs to be different than the underscore prepended property name.
Yes, #dynamic is as you describe.
Further, it is no longer necessary to declare local instance methods or order such that the method is above the use.
First off, #synthesize is gone for these scenarios: do not have to do it any more.
Secondly, you don't need the private ivar anymore either.
So in essence, you can just do properties.
The way of controlling access is the same idiom that had become popular before MOC dropped: put the property in the public interface as readonly and then make a readwrite version in the private interface (which should be, as you show above, merely the name with open and close parens).
Note also, that many of the things that cluttered up the public interface in the past can now ONLY be in the private interface, so for instance IBOutlets, etc., since the controller is going to be the only thing diddling them.
I never see #dynamic used anywhere except in CoreDate-generated entities.
For someone who first worked with C++ where the dream was always that the header/interface merely show the user of the class what they needed and all other details would be hidden, I think MOC (Modern Objective C) is a dream come true.
BTW, highly recommend the intro session from WWDC Modern Objective C (from 2012) and the one this year was great too.

self.variableName vs. _variableName vs. #sysnthesize variableName [duplicate]

This question already has answers here:
Closed 10 years ago.
Possible Duplicate:
How does an underscore in front of a variable in a cocoa objective-c class work?
Note: For the folks digging around trying to understand this, I figured-out the source of my confusion. In the .h, I had:
...
#interface myClass : parentClass {
className *variableName:
}
#property (strong, nonatomic) className *variableName;
...
This leads to self.variableName and _variableName being two distinct variables in the .m. What I needed was:
...
#interface myClass : parentClass {
className *_variableName:
}
#property (strong, nonatomic) className *variableName;
...
Then, in the class' .m, self.variableName and _variableName are equivalent
In brand-new, Xcode 4.5+, with ARC, targeting iOS 5.0+ project, is there a distinct advantage (runtime efficiency, speed, etc.) to using _variableName over self.variableName vs. the old-style #synthesize variableName?
My understanding is that Xcode 4.5+ will create a default accessor _variableName that is equivalent to self.variableName and the only reasons not to use #synthesize variableName is to avoid confusion between iVars and passed-in variables, correct?
To me, just using self.variableName to access an iVar seems the most straightforward and clear as to which variable you're looking for. Other than typing _ vs. self., is there an advantage to using _variableName?
My understanding is that Xcode 4.5+ will create a default accessor "_variableName" that is equivalent to self.variableName and the only reasons not to use "#synthesize variableName" is to avoid confusion between iVars and passed-in variables, correct?
In this case, _variableName isn't the accessor, it's an ivar that is automatically generated by the compiler and used in the automatically #synthesized setters and getters. Generally, it is considered best to use accessors whenever possible (i.e. self.variableName) so that things like key-value observation and bindings work for that property.
When you access an ivar directly, it is accessed via direct memory access, the same way you would access data in a struct. It simply takes the pointer for the object that owns the ivar, offsets the memory address and attempts to read or write to the memory at that location. Using dot notation (self.variableName) calls the accessor methods to set or get that property and can do a number of different things along the way, such as:
1) Locking: If the property is going to be used in multiple threads and is an atomic property, the runtime will automatically do some locking to make sure that the property is not accessed at the same time from multiple threads. If your object is not meant to be used on multiple threads, you can give the nonatomic hint in your property declaration so that the synthesized accessors skip the locking.
2) Key-Value Notifications: The default setters for properties call -willChangeValueForKey: and -didChangeValueForKey:, which sends out notifications when the property is changed. This is necessary for anything to update properly if bindings are used, and for any other key-value observation.
3) Custom accessor behavior: If you end up writing your own setters and getters, any custom stuff that you implement within those.
Technically, accessing the ivar directly is faster than using accessors, but there are very few situations in which it will make a significant performance difference, and would probably be a case of premature optimization. Even if you don't feel like you would be using the benefits listed above right away, it's probably better to use the accessors anyway so that if you decide later on you need some of that functionality, you don't have to change every instance of accessing that variable (and possibly be creating unexpected new bugs in the process).
In addition, if you are accessing ivars directly and end up refactoring your class into categories or subclasses, it gets messy because you usually have to declare the ivar as a #protected variable. You wouldn't have to do this if you are using the accessors.
Generally, I try to only access the ivars directly in init, dealloc, and the property's accessor. A lot of engineers go by this rule of thumb because sometimes the custom stuff that happens in accessors can cause unexpected behavior while the object is init'ing or dealloc'ing. For example, if anything in the accessors causes something to retain or release your object or even form a zeroing weak reference to it, it will cause a crash if used in dealloc.
In the latest Xcode #synthesize is optional. By default, omitting #synthesize is the same as writing
#synthesize someName = _someName;
The only reason to use #synthesize is to rename the instance variable created to store the value of the property, for example
#synthesize someName = someSpecialName;
When you use self.variableName to access a variable, you go through a property, which is a short method that accesses the instance variable for you. Although the method dispatch is very fast, it may perform additional services for you, such as synchronizing the access to the variable (this is the case when you specify atomic or do not specify nonatomic in the property declaration). In cases like that, the access through self.variableName will be somewhat slower. If done in a tight loop, this could potentially make a difference. That is why you sometimes want to access the underlying instance variable directly by using _variableName.

Will the compiler auto-synthesize an ivar for a property declared in a category?

Before so-called "Modern Objective-C", when creating a new property in category, we needed to implement setter and getter methods. Now, we don't have to do #synthesize; the compiler will automatically create the methods and an instance variable.
But normally, we cannot add instance variables to a category, so what happens if we add a new property in a category with modern Objective-C? Does the compiler create an ivar for us?
You can declare a property in a category, which is equivalent to declaring the getter and (if readwrite) setter selectors.
The compiler will not automatically synthesize the getter and setter methods in your category implementation. If you don't explicitly define them in the category implementation, the compiler will issue a warning. You can use #dynamic in the category implementation to suppress the warning. You cannot use #synthesize in the category implementation; the compiler will issue an error if you try.
The compiler will not add an instance variable for a property declared in a category. You cannot explicitly add instance variables in a category, and you can't trick the compiler into doing it using a property.
I tested my claims using Xcode 4.5.1 targetting iOS 6.0.
Actually I don't know when we were able to add property in categories.
From Apple Docs:
A category allows you to add methods to an existing class—even to one for which you do not have the source.
and
Class extensions are like anonymous categories, except that the methods they declare must be implemented in the main #implementation block for the corresponding class. Using the Clang/LLVM 2.0 compiler, you can also declare properties and instance variables in a class extension.
and this method is used to add storage to an object without modifying the class declaration (in case you couldn't modify or don't have access to source codes of class)
Associative references, available starting in OS X v10.6, simulate the addition of object instance variables to an existing class. Using associative references, you can add storage to an object without modifying the class declaration. This may be useful if you do not have access to the source code for the class, or if for binary-compatibility reasons you cannot alter the layout of the object.
So your question for me seems to be incorrect.
Source: Apple Docs - The Objective-C Programming Language
As others have said, the way to do this is with Associative References. They are implemented much like CALayer's value / key-pair paradigm.. in that basically.. you can "associate" anything, with any "property", or "thing"…
So in your category header… if all you want to do is read a value…
#property (readonly) NSString *uniqueID;
and then write your getter…
- (NSString*) uniqueID { return #"You're not special"; }
But say.. you can't just come up with the value from within your getter.. and you need storage for either an external setter… or the class' own implementation to use… you HAVE to write a setter like...
- (void) setUniqueID:(NSString*)uId
It need not be public, necessarily… but this is where the "magic" happens.
…
[self setAssociatedValue:uId forKey:#"yourInternalStorageName"
policy:OBJC_ASSOCIATION_RETAIN_NONATOMIC];
I realized after looking at this, that I'm using some "personal categories" to help ease the setting and getting etc. of these values.. so I've posted them to this gist, as they are VERY useful.. and include such little gems as…
- (id) associatedValueForKey:(NSString*)key
orSetTo:(id)anObject
policy:(objc_AssociationPolicy) policy;
The secret to "getting it" is the "policy" portion.. These values…
OBJC_ASSOCIATION_ASSIGN = 0,
OBJC_ASSOCIATION_RETAIN_NONATOMIC = 1,
OBJC_ASSOCIATION_COPY_NONATOMIC = 3,
OBJC_ASSOCIATION_RETAIN = 01401,
OBJC_ASSOCIATION_COPY = 01403
capture the same "personality" traits as are expressed when describing your properties in a "normal" declaration. You must tell the compiler how to "store" your values with those same rules, and you'll be good to go.

When to use instance variables and when to use properties

When using Objective-C properties can you stop creating instance variables altogether or do explicit instance variables (not the ones synthesized by the properties) still serve a purpose where properties would be inappropriate?
can you stop creating instance variables altogether
No, you can't (in a sense). What you can do is stop declaring them if you have properties. If you synthesize a property and you haven't declared the instvar, it will get declared for you, so you are creating an instance variable, just not explicitly.
do they still serve a purpose where properties would be inappropriate?
It used to be the advice to create properties for everything because having synthesized properties does almost all of the retains and releases for you. However, with ARC that reason for using properties to wrap the memory management has gone away. The advice now (for ARC) is, I believe, use properties to declare your external interface, but use direct instance variables where the variable is part of the object's internal state.
That's a good reason to adopt ARC: properties revert to their true purpose only of being part of the class's API and it's no longer necessary to use them as a hacky way to hide memory management work.
Edit
One more thing: you can now declare instance variables in the #implementation so there is now no need to leak any implementation details in the #interface. i.e.
#implementation MyClass
{
NSString* myString;
}
// method definitions
#end
And I'm pretty sure it works in categories too. - see comment below
I recommend declaring everything as properties and avoiding manual ivars altogether. There is no real upside to manually creating ivars. Declare public properties in your header #interface, declare private properties in a private class extension in your .m file.
To some of JeremyP's points, internal use of accessors still has significant value under ARC, even though memory management is no longer a significant concern. It ensures that KVO works properly, subclasses better, supports custom setters (particularly for things like NSTimer), supports custom getters (such as for lazy instantiation), etc. It is exceedingly error-prone to have a mix of accessors and ivars. It's far too easy to forget which you need to access in which way. Consistency is the hallmark of good ObjC.
If you absolutely must declare an ivar for some reason, then you should do it in the #implementation block as JeremyP notes.
UPDATE (Oct-2013):
Apple's guidance (From Programming with Objective-C: Encapsulating Data):
Most Properties Are Backed by Instance Variables
In general, you should use accessor methods or dot syntax for property access even if you’re accessing an object’s properties from within its own implementation, in which case you should use self:
...
The exception to this rule is when writing initialization, deallocation or custom accessor methods, as described later in this section.
This question was addressed before here
When you use synthesize the instance variables are handled and instantiated for you. If you're using Lion with the new version of XCode also take a look at the various properties in ARC in Transitioning to ARC
you can always access properties from outside. So if you want a variable only to be read from inside a class you still have to declare a iVar. Also accessing a public ivar with object->ivar is slightly faster than using a method-call.

Using instance variables with Modern Runtime

I have several years of experience in Obj-c and Cocoa, but am just now getting back into it and the advances of Obj-C 2.0 etc.
I'm trying to get my head around the modern runtime and declaring properties, etc. One thing that confuses me a bit is the ability in the modern runtime to have the iVars created implicitly. And of course this implies that in your code you should always be using self.property to access the value.
However, in init* and dealloc(assuming you're not using GC) methods we should be using the iVar directly (in the current runtime).
So questions are:
Should we use property accessors in init* and dealloc with Modern Runtime?
If so, why is this different? Is it just because the compiler can't see the iVar?
If I need to override an accessor, can I still access that iVar that will be defined at runtime or do I have to define an actual iVar that the runtime will then use?
Again, if I can access the synthesized iVar, why can't I continue to do this for the init* and dealloc methods?
I read the docs several times, but they seemed a bit vague about all of this and I want to be sure that I understand it well in order to decide how I want to continue coding.
Hope that my questions are clear.
Quick summary of testing:
If you don't declare the ivar in legacy, compiler is completely unhappy
If you use #ifndef __OBJC2__ around ivar in legacy compiler is happy and you can use both ivar directly and as property
In modern runtime, you can leave the ivar undefined and access as property
In modern runtime, trying to access ivar directly without declaration gives error during compile
#private declaration of ivar, of course, allows direct access to ivar, in both legacy and modern
Doesn't really give a clean way to go forward right now does it?
In the current (OS X 10.5/GCC 4.0.1) compiler, you cannot directly access the runtime-synthesized ivars. Greg Parker, one of the OS X runtime engineers put it this way on the cocoa-dev list (March 12, 2009):
You can't in the current compiler. A
future compiler should fix that. Use
explicit #private ivars in the
meantime. An #private ivar should not
be considered part of the contract -
that's what #private means, enforced
by compiler warnings and linker
errors.
And why isn't there a way to
explicitly declare instance variables
in the .m file for the new runtime?
Three reasons: (1) there are some
non-trivial design details to work
out, (2) compiler-engineer-hours are
limited, and (3) #private ivars are
generally good enough.
So, for now you must use dot-notation to access properties, even in init and dealloc. This goes against the best practice of using ivars directly in these cases, but there's no way around it. I find that the ease of using runtime-synthesized ivars (and the performance benefits) outweigh this in most cases. Where you do need to access the ivar directly, you can use a #private ivar as Greg Parker suggests (there's nothing that prevents you from mixing explicitly declared and runtime-synthesized ivars).
Update With OS X 10.6, the 64-bit runtime does allow direct access to the synthesized ivars via self->ivar.
Since instance variables themselves can only be synthesized in the modern runtime (and must be declared in the #interface under 32-bit or pre-Leopard), it's safest / most portable to also declare the ivar
Should we use property accessors in init* and dealloc with Modern Runtime?
My rule of thumb is "possibly" for -init*, and "usually not" for -dealloc.
When initializing an object, you want to make sure to properly copy/retain values for ivars. Unless the property's setter has some side effect that makes it inappropriate for initialization, definitely reuse the abstraction the property provides.
When deallocating an object, you want to release any ivar objects, but not store new ones. An easy way to do this is to set the property to nil (myObject.myIvar = nil), which basically calls [myObject setMyIvar:nil]. Since messages to nil are ignored, there is no danger in this. However, it's overkill when [myIvar release]; is usually all you need. In general, don't use the property (or directly, the setter) in situations where deallocation should behave differently than setting the variable.
I can understand eJames' argument against using property accessors in init/dealloc at all, but the flipside is that if you change the property behavior (for example, change from retain to copy, or just assign without retaining) and don't use it in init, or vice versa, the behavior can get out of sync too. If initializing and modifying an ivar should act the same, use the property accessor for both.
If so, why is this different? Is it just because the compiler can't see the ivar?
The modern runtime deals with class size and layout more intelligently, which is why you can change the layout of ivars without having to recompile subclasses. It is also able to infer the name and type of the ivar you want from the name and type of the corresponding property. The Objective-C 2.0 Runtime Programming Guide has more info, but again, I don't know how deeply the details explained there.
If I need to override an accessor, can I still access that iVar that will be defined at runtime or do I have to define an actual iVar that the runtime will then use?
I haven't tested this, but I believe you're allowed to access the named ivar in code, since it actually does have to be created. I'm not sure whether the compiler will complain, but I would guess that since it will let you synthesize the ivar without complaining, it is also smart enough to know about the synthesized ivar and let you refer to it by name.
Again, if I can access the synthesized iVar, why can't I continue to do this for the init* and dealloc methods?
You should be able to access the property and/or ivar anytime after the instance has been allocated.
There is another SO question with similar information, but it isn't quite a duplicate.
The bottom line, from the Objective-C 2.0 documentation, and quoted from Mark Bessey's answer is as follows:
There are differences in the behavior that depend on the runtime (see also “Runtime Differences”):
For the legacy runtimes, instance variables must already be declared in the #interface block. If an instance variable of the same name and compatible type as the property exists, it is used—otherwise, you get a compiler error.
For the modern runtimes, instance variables are synthesized as needed. If an instance variable of the same name already exists, it is used.
My understanding is as follows:
You should not use property accessors in init* and dealloc methods, for the same reasons that you should not use them in the legacy runtime: It leaves you open to potential errors if you later override the property methods, and end up doing something that shouldn't be done in init* or dealloc.
You should be able to both synthesize the ivar and override the property methods as follows:
#interface SomeClass
{
}
#property (assign) int someProperty;
#end
#implementation SomeClass
#synthesize someProperty; // this will synthesize the ivar
- (int)someProperty { NSLog(#"getter"); return someProperty; }
- (void)setSomeProperty:(int)newValue
{
NSLog(#"setter");
someProperty = newValue;
}
#end
Which leads me to think that you would be able to access the synthesized ivar in your init* and dealloc methods as well. The only gotcha I could think of is that the #synthesize line may have to come before the definitions of your init* and dealloc methods in the source file.
In the end, since having the ivars declared in the interface still works, that is still your safest bet.
I am running into the same problem. The way I am working around not being able to access the synthesized instance variables is the following:
public header
#interface MyObject:NSObject {
}
#property (retain) id instanceVar;
#property (retain) id customizedVar;
#end
private header / implementation
#interface MyObject()
#property (retain) id storedCustomizedVar;
#end
#implementation MyObject
#synthesize instanceVar, storedCustomizedVar;
#dynamic customizedVar;
- customizedVar {
if(!self.storedCustomizedVar) {
id newCustomizedVar;
//... do something
self.storedCustomizedVar= newCustomizedVar;
}
return self.storedCustomizedVar;
}
- (void) setCustomizedVar:aVar {
self.storedCustomizedVar=aVar;
}
#end
It's not that elegant, but at least it keeps my public header file clean.
If you use KVO you need to define customizedVar as dependent key of storedCustomizedVar.
I'm relatively new to Obj-C (but not to programming) and have also been confused by this topic.
The aspect that worries me is that it seems to be relatively easy to inadvertently use the iVar instead of the property. For example writing:
myProp = someObject;
instead of
self.myProp = someObject;
Admittedly this is "user" error, but it's still seems quite easy to do accidentally in some code, and for a retained or atomic property it could presumably lead to problems.
Ideally I'd prefer to be able to get the runtime to apply some pattern to the property name when generating any iVar. E.g. always prefix them with "_".
In practice at the moment I'm doing this manually - explicitly declaring my ivars, and deliberately giving them different names from the properties. I use an old-style 'm' prefix, so if my property is "myProp", my iVar will be "mMyProp". Then I use #synthesize myProp = mMyProp to associate the two.
This is a bit clumsy I admit, and a bit of extra typing, but it seems worth it to me to be able to disambiguate a little bit more clearly in the code. Of course I can still get it wrong and type mMyProp = someObject, but I'm hoping that the 'm' prefix will alert me to my error.
It would feel much nicer if I could just declare the property and let the compiler/runtime do the rest, but when I have lots of code my gut instinct tells me that I'll make mistakes that way if I still have to follow manual rules for init/dealloc.
Of course there are also plenty of other things I can also do wrong...