I'm evaluating components for a new embedded platform. CPU is an ARM9 and OS is Linux. Because the platform will be in use at least for 10 years I think the language should be chosen carefully as well. I'm already running Mono on possible target platform. Beside that I'm to dumb to compile Mono with my Compiler (according to Google more or less everyone else has the same problems), it's already running. I've written some benchmarks for our specific needs and I was quite impressed that Mono was never more than twice as slow compared to plain C. Memory usage is OK, and when I remove all unneeded files the footprint is acceptable. I just like to know if anyone else uses Mono on an embedded platform? Did you have any problems? Things which everyone should consider?
Given that the iPhone and Android are ARM, Mono is very well supported on ARM. And because Novell sells supported versions of Mono targeting those platforms, it is likely to stay well supported for quite some time.
One thing to note is the Mono runtime is licensed under the LGPL, so you need to ensure your usage complies with the license, or you will need to purchase a commercial license for Mono.
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The mono installation provided at mono-project.com comes packed with several libraries, such as gkt, making the installation quite large (~280MB or so).
Is there any way to provide users with an installation of "just" the mono environment? I am targeting Windows, MacOSX and Linux.
You might be looking for mkbundle which merges your application, the libraries it uses and the Mono runtime into a single executable image. See under "Bundles" in that page.
If you do this though, it may mean that you are distributing LGPL code with all that this implies.
If you are distributing your app for Mac OS X, there is also MonoMacPackager which offers more advanced support for this. I think they have done a bunch of work in the linker to really minimize the amount of Mono that you have to include. It will actually remove unused code from assemblies that you reference.
I have a friend who is was a serious Linux developer but now he's working with C# on Windows and is really loving it. I'm attracted to C# because, like Java, I should be able to compile on one system and run anywhere.
If you are developing on Windows with C#, you're using dot-Net. On Linux and MacOS, you're using Mono.
Other people have posted that Mono is pretty good, no longer a science project, and that most of the core Microsoft functionality is present. But that's not really getting at the questions that I have. I'm wondering:
How does performance of Mono on Linux/MacOS rate against Java? If I want to run fast on all three platforms with the same object code, what's my best choice?
Is it easy/possible/reasonable to use Mono with makefiles and do my development with emacs?
Is there support for code factoring in MacOS and Linux, or am I better off just biting the bullet and doing all of my development in Windows?
How well does Mono work with Subversion and the rest of the open source development stack? How about autoconf? Or is this a completely different way of doing things?
Thanks
I have been using Mono on Linux for about three years and lately have been using it on OS X. Some of the Linux stuff was pretty extensive but the OS X stuff has just been some simple ASP.NET MVC2 apps so far.
1) Performance of Mono has never been an issue for me. That is not to say that performance has not been important, it is just that the performance of Mono itself has never been an issue. A lot of what I have done is web based so I/O and database memory use have hit me before Mono has.
Historically, the biggest deficiency with Mono has been the Garbage Collector (GC). I would say that Java is better tuned in this regard. The most recent versions of Mono have made huge strides in this area but I do not have any hard numbers for you in terms of comparisons.
I am sure Mono is faster sometimes and Java sometimes but I would say that Java is faster overall.
2) You can certainly do Mono development with makefiles. Certainly the Mono team itself does. Also you can certainly use Emacs and there is a C# mode for it.
I tend to use MonoDevelop and xbuild (Mono version of msbuild) myself and do not have any experience doing C# work in Emacs. MonoDevelop is great because it is exactly the same on all platforms. Also, although I rarely use it anymore, it is nice that the project format is the same as Visual Studio and SharpDevelop.
3) MonoDevelop has pretty decent code factoring support. It is the same on Windows, Linux, and Mac. You do not need to use Windows for development (though you certainly can) but I believe you will be happier using an IDE like MonoDevelop. Even things like Intellisense become hard to live without once you are used to them. But integrated debugging, being able to drill-down into the framework, database integration, unit testing, SCM integration, and other nice tooling support all in one place is just the way to go (for me at least).
4) Mono itself does not care about version control of course. Your source files are just text and you could use anything to manage them.
That said, MonoDevelop has fantastic Subversion support built right into the IDE. I have used it extensively and it is one of the reasons I have trouble moving off MonoDevelop even on Windows. The latest version of MonoDevelop (2.6 beta) includes Git support as well.
You did not mention unit testing but MonoDevelop also has NUnit support built into the IDE. I use that on every project as well and it works excellently. The version in MonoDevelop is 2.4.8 (if memory serves) so it is not quite current but it works great.
In a nutshell, Mono works really well with Open Source tooling in general. It has always played really well for me.
Autoconf is of course used by the Mono project itself but, as a Mono developer, I have never seen a need for it. I strive to only use managed code in my projects. As such, all I need on the target platform is Mono (or .NET). Not having to worry about all that stuff is one of the primary benefits of a managed environment like Mono or Java. The runtime itself (the CLR) ensures that my app has everything it needs to function properly.
I know that MonoDevelop will build autoconf/autorun files for C/C++ projects (non-Mono) but I have not done much with it myself.
As to a previous comment, the Mono JIT is obviously tuned to the target platform. That is where platform specific performance tuning happens.
Just as a comment, I find that Mono is best viewed as a development environment in it's own right rather than a compatibility layer for Microsoft stuff. The Mono team has extended .NET in many interesting ways. Anything you develop for Mono will run on .NET but there are some .NET features not available for Mono. For example, Mono does not support Windows Presentation Foundation (WPF). You have to use Windows Forms or GTK# for cross-platform GUI work. You can also use something like Cocoa# or MonoMac on the Mac, MonoTouch on iPhone, or MonoDroid for Android. You can use Moonlight instead of Silverlight as well although I have not played with it much.
One more thing since you asked about Java. I have found a few times that the Java world had libraries that I could not find equivalents for in the .NET world. In these cases, I have had amazing luck using IKVM.NET to integrate this into my Mono apps. IKVM.NET also works on .NET but Mono and IKVM.NET are very cozy and even share some code.
So there you go, one real answer for you at least.
I have a plan to build a web-site which running CGI made with Cocoa.
My final goal is develop on Mac OS X, and run on FreeBSD.
Is this possible?
As I know, there is a free implementation of some NextStep classes, the GNUStep.
The web-site is almost built with only strings. I read GNUStep documents, classes are enough. DB connection will be made with C interfaces.
Most biggest problem which I'm concerning is linking and binary compatibility. I'm currently configuring FreeBSD on VirtualBox, but I wanna know any possibility informations about this from experts.
This is not a production server. Just a trial. Please feel free to saying anything.
--edit--
I confused Foundation and Cocoa frameworks. What I said was Foundation. Basic classes which just enough to manipulating strings.
It’s entirely possible to cross-develop using Xcode. The Cocotron does this – and provides an implementation of Foundation – but doesn’t currently target FreeBSD. You could probably use it as a template to set up cross-development for BSD targets using GNUstep, but it won’t be easy.
You should be OK with the GNUstep Foundation on FreeBSD 9.0 with Objective-C 2 (clang). See these instructions.
Note: Do not installing under '/' with a FreeBSD default install, because it has little space on the '/' partition. I've used /usr/local/gnustep instead, and made some links as the instructions suggest.
Note II: GNUstep sources from subversion repository didn't compile for me, so I used the latest stable GNUstep sources.
Yes, you can do this, and I am doing it right now successfully using FreeBSD 8.2 and Xcode 4.0, running the Foundation class from The Cocotron. Here is a link: describing exactly what I did to build the cross compiler and set everything up. I also detail in that post, how I attempted to get AppKit (GUI) to work. I failed, it may work in the future, it doesn't fully work yet.
So far it's great. I use a common codebase to write iPhone App (game client) and FreeBSD Game Server; after my server compiles I even have a target rsync the files to my dev box.
One more note, you mention DB, I'm successfully using mysqlclient libraries within my App and my post details how to do that. Since you're building a cross-compiler with The Cocotron you can use any library. Just install the library on FreeBSD first, then create the platform as described.
Sounds like your trying to shoehorn tools onto OS and hardware they were not designed for. There are hacks to get almost anything running on top of anything else but why ask for all the grief?
The entire point of the entire Apple API is that you have integration from hardware to OS to development tools. You supposed to pay more up front in return for greater robustness and lower over all lifecycle cost. (It doesn't always work just like Linux doesn't always save money and Windows doesn't always provide the software choices you need but that is the design goal.) When you break Apple's hardware-OS-Dev trinity you have to start fighting the API and the hardware instead of letting it work for you.
I don't think what you're doing will work and even if it does it will cost a lot of time and in the end time is money. Unless your being forced by external circumstances beyond your control to use this configuration, I would strongly suggest you do whatever it takes to find another way to accomplish what you want.
You won't get binary compatibility. Mac OS X uses the Mach-O object format and FreeBSD uses ELF, like linux. Cocoa won't work on platforms other than Mac OS, but if you stick to POSIX and open-source libraries though, you shouldn't have too much trouble building your CGI (and any dependencies) on your FreeBSD machine.
Also, Cocoa for a website? It's the Mac OS standard library for GUIs, associated datastructures, and various helpers. Apple used to promote something called WebObjects which was similar to Cocoa for the web, but I haven't heard anything about it in ages. I don't think Cocoa will work for a website, unless you just mean write a custom web server that has a graphical front-end in Cocoa.
Why can't Xcode be hacked to be able to run on Windows?
Does Xcode have another programming methods?
Also, I heard that iPhone apps are made with Objective-C, so why is this not available in Windows?
Thanks
Xcode is written in Objective-C and takes advantage of a number of OS X frameworks, so porting it to Windows would require porting all the frameworks on which Xcode relies. Furthermore, Xcode also uses a number of programming tools that would have to be ported to Windows as well (some of them already are, of course).
There are several reasons that Objective-C isn't readily available on Windows:
Most development of Objective-C frameworks takes place on OS X, and a lot of the frameworks aren't open-source and thus can't be ported to Windows (they'd have to be rewritten).
There are some open-source frameworks that could be used on Windows -- for example, OS X's AppKit and Foundation frameworks are (mostly) available as part of the GNUstep project -- but these frameworks aren't widely used or supported on Windows, and sometimes lack capabilities found in their OS X counterparts.
That said, GCC is available on Windows, and since GCC is an Objective-C compiler, you could compile Objective-C code on Windows if you had the right libraries available (or didn't use any third-party libraries). But Objective-C isn't terribly useful without supporting frameworks, and those are rare or nonexistent on Windows.
Same can be said why isn't there Visual Studio 2008 for OSX.
Xcode is a big application written to set of APIs not present on Windows. Porting it would be an enormous job, maintaining it would be a big job, and there are already popular IDEs on the Windows platform.
The same reason you can't install Mac OS X on your PC: Apple chooses to make it available only to people who own their own brand of computers.
I guess that porting XCode would be close to very hard (if not impossible) but even if you were able to have a running XCode version under Windows, I guess that it won’t do what you really want it to do. I assume you want a complete iPhone SDK environment which is reliant on XCode and Interface Builder in a very tight way. That’d require the port of Cocoa Frameworks (among other things) that would be, now for real, impossible to port.
Truth is, as much as you will surely need Windows for Windows Phone development, you need a Macintosh computer for iPhone development.
On the other hand, Xcode as an IDE, is not the best in the world, so even if you managed to get Xcode and make it use, .NET (for example), I’d much rather use visual studio for that.
Actually you can install Mac OS X on any Intel CPU based machine. It is legal as you own the orginal install DVD for the OS X system. After aquiring a copy of Virtualbox or VMWare (either is great, personally I prefer Virtualbox because the display settings are more customizable). Virtualbox allows setup on initial setup while VMWare requires an extra step to ensure compatibility. You can then find the steps online to setup a virtual copy of MacOS X.
After going through the steps to install the OS in the Virtual Machine, you can then go through the process to find XCode in the Apple App Store. From there, have at it. Start programming in XCode and have a good time. Since XCode has its own device emulator you have a built in platform for iOS testing. There may be times where it is a bit buggy but that is to be expected with ANY emulator for ANY system you run.
After you get everything installed and going, sit back and enjoy the programming ride. The only catch is if you want to post anything on the Apple App store and then you will have to deal with getting an Apple Dev License. Objective C can be a bit difficult at times but, at the same time, it can be very satisfying when you solve those programming problems (as with any programming language right ;-) )
Enjoy
PS... this VM install keeps up with all updates from the Apple App Store so keeping the system updated won't be a problem.
PSS... I will not condone anyone for where their source of software is but do keep in mind, setting up a VM with VMWare or Virtualbox and an install DVD is only legal IF you personally OWN the install DVD you created the install image from yourself!
I was currently developing a desktop application in C# using mono and testing in SuSE and Windows. The concept doesn't matter much, but it is a "web lint" program that will scan a web site and return possible issues with security and/or cross browser compatibility. However, I want to be able to offer binaries for multiple platforms. Should I stay with Mono, or is there another platform that would give me a better availablility of platforms, such as on Macs, Windows, Linux, and others (possibly mobile platforms), and make it easier to port?
Well, your best bet always is to use a language that actually exists on all the platforms. That usually means Java, I think, though even perl has flavours for mobile platforms (depending on the mobile platform in question).
I do most of my cross-platform work in C and perl, but there are some headaches with C (lots of #ifdef's), and perl may not be on a mobile platform you care about (yet). You'll have to evaluate the languages/compilers/interpreters that are common to all the platforms you want to target and then choose from that list. Without knowing the full list of such platforms, we'll have a hard time telling you what to use, though Java has enough buzz-wordness to likely be a strong candidate.
Iff you know C++, Qt will cover many platforms.
C# and Mono is probably cross-platform enough for most desktop environments. The trick will be the "mobile platform" requirement.
Mobile operating systems are wildly diverse and there's not a lot you can do to generalize. Some have Java, like the Blackberry. C# may get you onto Windows Mobile-based platforms. iPhones do their own thing. You pretty much have to pick a platform and target that. That may end up informing your desktop platform choice.
Just stick to the Mono, make sure that you have Gendarme code inspector (FxCop for Mono) checking your code for portability issues, and you should be fine.
Java will run on Windows, Linux and Macs. Should be easy to transition from C# - use Apache HTTPClient for grabbing the web content you are scanning, and the scanning code should be more or less the same. However the downside is requiring the user to have the Java runtime installed.
Python is another option - you can build stand-alone executables for Windows, and it comes with most Linux distributions by default, and also Mac OS X (citation needed ;) ). This is a lot less hassle for Windows users (language is compiled into the executable, no other downloads required).
If mono runs on Mac OS X then surely that is a good platform as well?
It really depends what you want to do. For web development, if HTML/JavaScript is enough then stick with it. If you need more advanced stuff I would use ASP.NET with Mono (what you probably did) since you already know that. (You can use Visual Studio here.)
Another option might be (since you are a C# developer) to use Silverlight. That gives you Windows and Mac platforms covered and hopefully Moonlight will cover Linxu platform later. (You can use Visual Studio and Expression Blend here.)
If you need desktop application then Java is probably the easiest since you already know C#. But if you know C/C++ try to take a look at wxWidgets for example.
Why limit yourself to the traditional C#/Java? Have a look at Adobe AIR and Microsoft SilverLight