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Is there a Plug-and-play Common Lisp/Scheme implementation?
By Plug-and-play I mean an implementation with an IDE that doesn't require you to play chords with a pianist dexterity(so not Emacs), where you can run a program by pressing a button not writing commands in a console, with modern libraries and that is portable.
Racket supports all the features above EXCEPT portability. I wrote a program in Racket that I couldn't send to friends because it wouldn't run on other computers. I want to make programs that I can send as easily as a Java programmer sends a Jar file and you can run it with double-click.
I also don't like how Clojure looks.
So the big question: if someone doesn't know programming, can he learn LISP using this implementation as easy as someone who would pick Java or C#?
I think you are mixing a lot of different requirements in your description:
If you need something that compiles to a binary executable file, you can use a bunch of CL implementations that compiles to an executable file. You can even use https://common-lisp.net/project/armedbear/ that runs on JVM.
If you need something easy to start with, with editor and runtime embedded, you can use http://www.lispworks.com or things like https://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/.
But it seems that you are also talking about the language. Well, the syntax is only one part of the language, don't evaluate a language just taking into account its syntax.
Finally, I don't believe that it is easy to start working with Java or C#. You may think that these IDEs make life easier, but in the reality, it takes time to install them, solve dependencies and really learn how to be productive with them. Those IDEs end-up being much less flexible and usable than Emacs that you criticized. I have some experience teaching CL for students that after 1-2 months quickly started to be very productively why Emacs.
Well I think that this days is pretty easy to install common lisp and intall slime with quiclisp then you can have your environment quick and easy
take a look at this question
Setting the SLIME in emacs
and in quicklisp:
https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/#installation
also I recommend you to take a look at the roswell an intend to be a lisp installer and launcher for major environment that just work.
project on github in the wiki section they have an easy form of start emacs with roswell:
https://github.com/roswell/roswell/wiki
require you to play chords with a pianist dexterity(so not Emacs)
One can use emacs like notepad and use menus and buttons to do actions instead of key combinations, that although arbitrary, don't require much dexterity to reach. It is clear to someone that have used SLIME that you SLIME satisfies your requirements but are deadset against emacs. If so, give Allegro Common Lisp a try.
Racket supports all the features above EXCEPT portability. I wrote a program in Racket that I couldn't send to friends because it wouldn't run on other computers. I want to make programs that I can send as easily as a Java programmer sends a Jar file and you can run it with double-click.
In racket you can use raco exe will produce a Stand alone executable, so Racket will also do.
Background: I want to develop a component therefore building a class library.
This component should be usable with many higher-order languages such as C, C#, C++, VB, Java, Haskell, Ruby, Erlang, ...
I do not want to exclude any users which are not using my development language.
Are there principles or tools which supports my project?
I searched a little bit and found Haxle for compiling into different languages, but it supports very few of them.
I would even develop parallel in all n languages to be supported, but if I want to change or fix something I have to maintain all other n-1 and the code is possibly distributed...
This is not what I know about clean code design and maintainability. So how to manage edits on code for the different languages?
What is the proper way to solve this? I am surely not the first one which want to build a library for multiple languages.
I want to develop this library (in this case for complexity reduction) in one target language but this time for multiple platforms (Unix, Win, Mac ...).
How to manage this? In fact there will be appreciated about 90% of code which is platform independent and 10% which differs for every OS.
What is the best way to control the changes in the platform dependent code? (The independent is easy ...)
What if I change so things in the part which uses Unix dependent code, then I have to trail all other platform and the code is possibly distributed.
I think #IFDEF is no option ...
Are there any experiences or hints?
I would be delighted if there are existing solutions to these problems, which are quite similar.
What you want is only possible if you provide interfaces for every language you want to support. Some kind of wrapper which transforms between the client language and ypu library.
This is possible but not practical in most cases for standalone libraries.
Take a look at webservices or or message orientad middleware. In this case your application will be provided within a special container which itself provides interface mechanism e.g.
SOAP, XML-RPC to call your application.
For 1), I would use an interface that all these languages can use. A common approach is something based on networking/TCP, like protobuffer, REST, SOAP. Many languages support these in their standard libraries, and interfaces designed with that are normally language agnostic.
There are basically two options - you could develop a network server or you could develop a JVM-based library which could be shared between some of the JVM languages like JRuby or Jython.
Update from #millimoose: you could also develop your library in C and create bindings for all other languages.
For multi-language:
I thought about TCP/middleware/webservices/REST/ which seems to be the recommended proceeding.
But I think it's all to much at runtime for only using a library.
Also the functionality is a little bit time-critical and so direct procedure calls are more fitting (instead of networking even on localhost). And the library user hasn't to construct an access component only to use the library functions.
So I think the way to go seems to be developing the library in a core language which is widely supported (C/C++, ...) and provide wrapper interfaces for the different target languages.
For multi-platform (mono-language):
No real answer has been provided also not in my mind.
Of course I could simply use Java (what I am familiar with) but what about other languages?
I am surely not the first one having this/these problem(s) ...
A project is looming whereby some code that I will be writing may be deployed on any hardware that potential clients happen to have. Its a business application that will be running 24/7 so I envisage that most of the host machines will be server type boxes but smaller clients might, for example, just have a simple PC.
A few more details about the code I will be writing:
There will be no GUI.
It will need to communicate with another bespoke 'black box' device over an Ethernet network.
It will need to communicate with a MySQL database somewhere on the network.
I don't have any performance concerns as a) the number of communications with the black box will be small, around 1 per second, and the amount of data exchanged will be tiny (around 1K each time), b) the number of read/writes with the database will be small, around 5 per minute, and again the amount of data exchanged will be tiny and c) the processing that needs to be performed is fairly simplistic.
Nothing I'm doing is very 'close to the metal' so I don't want to use languages that are too low level. Ease of development and ease of deployment are my main priorities.
I'm not expecting there to be a perfect solution so I can live with things like, for example, having to have slightly different configuration files for Windows machines than for Linux boxes etc. I would like to avoid having to compile the software for each host machine if possible though.
I would value your thoughts as to which development language you think is most suitable.
Cheers,
Jim
I'd go with a decent scripting language such as Python, Perl or Ruby personally. All of those have decent library support, can communicate easily with both local and remote MySQL databases and are pretty platform independent.
The first thing we need to know is what language skills you already have? This is likely to be a fairly big determiner of what choice you would ideally make.
If I was doing this I'd suggest Java for a couple of reasons:
It will run almost anywhere and meet the requirements you've outlined.
Its not an esoteric language so there will be plenty of developers.
I already know how to program in it!
Probably the most extensive library ecosystem of any of the development platforms.
Also note that you could write it in another language on the JVM if your more comfortable with Ruby or Python.
Sounds like Perl or Python would fit the bill perfectly. Which one you choose would depend on the expertise of the people building and supporting the system.
On the subject of scripting languages versus Java, I have been disappointed with developing command line tools using Java. You can't directly execute them, you have to (1) compile them and (2) write a shell script to execute the jar file, this script may differ between platforms. I recommend Python because it runs anywhere and it's got a great SQL library, mysql-python. The library is ready to use on Windows and Linux. Python also has a lot less boilerplate, you'll write fewer lines of code to do the same thing.
EDIT: when I talked about JARs being executable or not, I was talking about whether they are directly executable be the OS. You can, of course, double click on them to run them if your file manager is set up to do so. But when you're in a terminal window and you want to run a java program, you have to "java -jar myapp.jar" instead of the usual "./myapp.jar". In Python one just runs "./myapp.py" and doesn't have to worry about compiling or class paths.
If all platforms are standard PCs (or at least run Linux), then Python should be considered. You can compile it yourself if no package exists for your version. Also, you can strip the standard library easily from things that aren't available and which you don't need (sound support, for example).
Python doesn't need lots of resources, it's easy to learn and read.
If you know Perl, you can try that. If you don't use Perl on a daily basis, then don't. The Perl syntax is hard to remember and after a week, you'll wonder what the code did, even if you wrote it yourself.
Perl may be of help to you as it is available for many platforms and you can get almost any functionality by simply installing modules from CPAN.
Python or Java. They both are easy to deploy on both the server environments and the desktop environments you mention - i.e., Linux/Solaris and Windows.
Perl is also a nice choice, but it depends on how well you know Perl, how well other people that will maintain your code know Perl, and number of desktop users that are savvy enough to handle an install of the Windows Perl version(s).
As Java supports Python via Jython, I'd go with a JVM requirement myself, but I'd personally go with a Java application all the way for such a system you describe.
I would say use C or C++. They are platform independant, though you will have to compile for each platform.
Or use Java. That runs in a Virtual Machine so is truely cross platform and not a slow level as C.
As already discussed in "Lua as a general-purpose scripting language?" Lua currently probably isn't the best scripting language for the desktop environment.
But what do you think about the future? Will Lua get so popular that there will soon be enough libraries to be able to use it like Python, Ruby or something similar?
Or will it simply stay in it's WoW niche and that's it?
I think it has a great future, a lot of projects are starting to adopt it for it's simplicity and usefulness.
Example: Awesome WM (Window Manager)
The project recently released version 3, incorporating a new configuration system completely written in Lua. Allowing you to literally write your configuration file as a program, loops, booleans, data structures.
Personally I love the syntax and the flexibility of such a system, I think it has great potential.
I wouldn't be surprised if it became more popular in the future.
Brian G
I suppose the answer starts with 'It depends how you want to use it...'.
If you're writing the common business app (fetch the data from the database, display the data in a web page or window, save the data to the database), Lua already has what you need.
The Kepler Project contains goodies for web development. Check out their modules to see some of the available libraries - there's network, MVC, DBMS access, XML, zip, WSAPI, docs...
As an example web app, check out Sputnik.
For desktop UI, there's wxLua - Lua hooks for wxWidgets.
ORM is conspicuously missing but that didn't stop people from developing in other languages before ORM was available.
If you're looking for specialized libraries - scientific, multimedia , security - don't count Lua out before you check LuaForge.
When it comes down to it, there's nothing in Lua's design that prevents general purpose use. It just happens to be small, fast, and easy to embed... so people do.
Uh? I would say instead WoW is a niche in the Lua ecosystem... The world of Lua doesn't revolve around WoW, there are lot of applications, some big like Adobe Lightroom (to take a non game), using Lua.
Lua is initially a scripting language, in the initial sense, ie. made to be embedded in an application to script it. But it is also designed as an extensible language, so we will see progressively more and more bindings of various libraries for various purposes.
But you will never get an official big distribution with batteries included, like Python or Perl, because it is just not the philosophy of the authors.
Which doesn't prevent other people to make distributions including lot of features out of the box (for Windows, particularly, where it is difficult to build the softwares).
Lot of people already use it for general system-level scripting, desktop applications, and such anyway.
There are more and more libraries for Lua.
If you are a Windows user, have look at Lua for Windows. It comes with "batteries included" (wxLua, LuaCURL, LuaUnit, getopt, LuaXML, LPeg...).
Very usefull!
It's 2017, 9 years after this question was first asked, and lua is now being heavily used in the field of machine learning due to the Torch library.
I really like it as an embedded language. It's small, very easy to use and embed and mostly does what I need right out of the box. It's also similar enough to most languages that it has never really been an issue for me. I also like how easy it is to redefine and add base functions and keywords to the language to suit whatever needs my application has.
I have used it in the WoW area but I've also found it useful as a generic scripting language for a number of different applications I've worked on, including as a type of database trigger. I like Ruby and Python and other more full-featured scripting languages but they're not nearly as convenient for embedding in small applications to give users more options for customizing their environments.
being comfortable as a shell language has nothing to do with being a great general purpose language.
i, for one, don't use it embedded in other applications; i write my applications in Lua, and anything 'extra' is a special-purpose library, either in Lua or in C.
Also, being 'popular' isn't so important. in the Lua-users list periodically someone appears that says "Lua won't be popular unless it does X!", and the usual answer is either: "great!, write it!", or "already discussed and rejected".
I think the great feature of Lua is, that it is very easily extensible. It is very easy to add the Lua interpreter to a program of your own (e.g. one written in C, C++ or Obj-C) and with just a few lines of code, you can give Lua access to any system resource you can think of. E.g. Lua offers no function to do xxx. Write one and make it available to Lua. But it's also possible the other way round. Write your own Lua extension in a language of your choice (one that is compilable), compile it into a native library, load the library within Lua and you can use the function.
That said, Lua might not be the best choice as a standalone crossplatform language. But Lua is a great language to add scripting support to your application in a crossplatform manner (if your app is crossplatform, the better!). I think Lua will have a future and I think you can expect that this language will constantly gain popularity in the long run.
Warhammer Online, and World of Warcraft use it for their addon language I believe.
I think it's hot! I'm just no good at it!
Well, greetings from 2022.
It is already a general purpose language. Today you can even serve pages using OpenResty, extend games, read databases or create scripts as shellscript replacements.
There are a plenty of libraries "modules" for Lua, many ways to achieve what you are wanting and Lua 5.4 is even faster.
The "extendable and extensive" nature of Lua, accostumed people to think it should only be used as plugin or extension. In Linux, by example, you can shebang a file with lua-any, make it executable and run like any system script. Or you can make a folder app like Python or virtualenv using Lupe. Lua 5.3 also gained impressive performance improvements.
Also there are many good tools like IUP to create native windows in Lua for Mac, BSD, Linux and Windows and side environments like Terra that lets you use Lua with its counterpart Terra and write compiled programs. Lua now, is more than a extension language, it has its own universe.
I've been making my way through The Little Schemer and I was wondering what environment, IDE or interpreter would be best to use in order to test any of the Scheme code I jot down for myself.
Racket (formerly Dr Scheme) has a nice editor, several different Scheme dialects, an attempt at visual debugging, lots of libraries, and can run on most platforms. It even has some modes specifically geared around learning the language.
I would highly recommend both Chicken and Gauche for scheme.
PLT Scheme (DrScheme) is one of the best IDEs out there, especially for Scheme. The package you get when downloading it contains all you need for developing Scheme code - libraries, documentation, examples, and so on. Highly recommended.
If you just want to test your scheme code, I would recommend PLT Scheme. It offers a very complete environment, with debugger, help, etc., and works on most platforms.
But if you also want to get an idea of how the interpreter behind the scenes works, and have Visual Studio, I would recommend Tachy. It is a very lightweight scheme interpreter written in c#. It allows you to debug just your scheme code, or also step through the c# interpreter behind the scenes to see what is going on.
Just for the record I have to mention IronScheme.
IronScheme will aim to be a R6RS conforming Scheme implementation based on the Microsoft DLR.
Version 1.0 Beta 1 was just released. I think this should be good implementation for someone that is already using .NET framework.
EDIT
Current version is 1.0 RC 1 from Oct 23 2009
Google for the book's authors (Daniel Friedman and Matthias Felleisen). See whether either of them is involved with a popular, free, existing Scheme implementation.
It doesn't matter, as long as you subscribe to the mailing list(wiki/irc/online-community-site) for the associated community. It's probably worth taking a look at the list description and archives to be sure you are in the right one.
Most of these are friendly and welcoming to newcomers, so don't be afraid to ask.
It's also worth searching the archives of their mailing list(or FAQ or whatever they use) when you have a question - just in case it is a frequent question.
Good Luck!
Guile running under Geiser within Emacs provides a nice, lightweight implementation for doing the exercises. Racket will also run under Geiser and Emacs, though I personally prefer Guile and Chez Scheme a bit more.
Obviously installation of each will depend on your OS. I would recommend using Emacs version 24 and later since this allows you to use Melpa or Marmalade to install Geiser and other Emacs extensions.
The current version of Geiser also works quite nicely with Chicken Scheme, Chez Scheme, MIT Scheme and Chibi Scheme.
LispMe works on a Palm Pilot, take it anywhere, and scheme on the go. GREAT way to learn scheme.
I've used PLT as mentioned in some of the other posts and it works quite nicely. One that I have read about but have not used is Allegro Common LISP Express. I read a stellar review about their database app called Allegro Cache and found that they are heavy into LISP. Like I said, I don't know if it's any good, but it might be worth a try.
I am currently working through the Little Schemer as well and use Emacs as my environment, along Quack, which adds additional support and utilities for scheme-mode within Emacs.
If you are planning on experimenting with other Lisps (e.g. Common Lisp), Emacs has excellent support for those dialects as well (Emacs itself can be customized with its own dialect of Lisp, appropriately named Emacs Lisp).
As far as Scheme implementations go, I am currently using Petit Chez Scheme, which is an interpreted, freely distributable version of Chez Scheme (which uses a compiler and costs money to obtain a license).