So GWT best practices encourages one to use some flavour of MVP, which should in theory allow one to write different native views while sharing the presenter business logic.
This seems to be at the heart of the GWT spin off Google project http://code.google.com/p/j2objc/ which converts the non-UI part of your code to Objective-C, allowing you to write the rest natively in Objective-C.
So my question is: If this really hard part of the puzzle is being solved, how hard would it be to include an HTML5 mobile library (like MGWT or Touch4j [Sencha]) into this MVP pipeline to have the best of all worlds?
Having dabbled with http://code.google.com/p/playn/ , this clearly seems to be the blue-print for having a cross-plaftform build system (native android & html5 & java &...), but that project is geared for single screen drawing and event loop for game dynamics and doesn't allow for keyboard input and other typical mobile goodies.
It seems a shame that if so much of the problem has been solved, that it's not possible to go the extra mile. The answer to this question would be the best plan for actioning a solution, including such nigglies as which MVP structure to choose that would ease accommodation of the various widget libraries (GWTP vs MVP 2.1), and if the best approach is to start with the PlayN code base, and start to hack it.. what are the gotchas? Or if another path is chosen, why that one? and why would it be the best??
Thanx a lot. :-)
It is not clear whether your question is - evaluation options for multi-platform app development or mvp.
You can evaluate additional technology which are used with Sencha and GWT
1) mgwt
2) titanium
3) phonegap
You can also reference - Creating a mobile app using Google App Engine and GWT?
Note: PlayN as you mention is more of gaming platform and not suitable for business app.
MVP is definitely doable... and at times you may feel like its a lot of work, but it pays off in the end. Check out the Touch4j Kitchen Sink, which is written using MVP. You can take that down to the device with Cordova if you wish. The code is on GitHub:
https://github.com/emitrom/touch4jks
The repo is actively being worked on (we are updating ourselves to Touch4j 4.0) so it won't run out the gate, but at least you can see and follow the model :-)
Titanium4j is to Appcelerator's Titanium as Touch4j is to Sencha Touch. You may want to check that out as well. Titanium4j and Touch4j rely on GWT.
Cheers.
I have a few questions that I hope clarity and facts can be fed all of us about this. First, the last release of ironpython had the feature of running on the mobile platform highlighting that on mono/android it runs best and not so much on the other platforms which are IOS and Windows phone. So does this mean one doesn't have to use the SL4A? Can i argue that monodroid hooks into the core of what android is capable of and so might give a more robust access/implementation/rendition of apps on android?
Next, I just want to be sure of this: As with python you can create full fledged desktop applications with ironpython right? Cos everywhere (almost) I see ironpython they refer to it as a scripting tool and how you can script aspects of excel etc which has prompted me ask such a question. some say that the speed of applications written using ironpython is not that great and I was arguing asking for why that opinion is held by those who were speaking and no one could say anything worthwhile.
Lastly, with the movement at novell and xamarin, I have not understood where mono stands in their release schemes. I have a mac and I installed a recent version of mono and when I typed ipy I saw something like mono 1.1.0 or something like that. Does anyone have a clue of what is going on with it.
I fell in love with python from learning ironpython and I think the ironpython concept is just sheer brilliance its a pity microsoft esteemed F# other it.
First off, for future reference, multiple questions should really be, well, multiple questions. :)
On IronPython for Android: it works slightly better than on other platforms (where it doesn't work at all right now) but it's still very, very early code. There are some limitations with what you'll be able to do (mainly, you cannot inherit from Java classes from dynamic code). It's very experimental.
On desktop apps: You can absolutely write full apps in IronPython. There are some samples that show how it can be done. In particular, PyWpfSample and PyGtkSample. Startup times are not great, but the actual runtime should be just fine for most GUI apps.
I'm a .NET developer with some questions about a small Mac project coming up.
We are going to be creating a small program for Mac OSX. The software will need to have a simple UI (1 screen) and will need to consume a WCF web service.
Should we code on our Windows boxes or on Mac machines? We have a couple Mac Minis, but we mostly do Windows development.
What IDE/dev environment should we use? (Eclipse, Xcode, etc.)
How does Mac software deployment generally work?
...
No one has mentioned Java/Eclipse. Isn't that an option?
Here are two options:
Write in Objective-C, using Xcode on Macs
Write in C#, using Mono on Windows or on a Mac with SharpDevelop
The advantage of #1 is the resulting app will be much easier to deploy to others, but you might have trouble consuming the WCF service. It depends on what exact interface you are exposing and what the types of the parameters are.
The advantage of #2 is that you can use your C# skills. I don't know the state of WCF in Mono, and the GUI may not look native.
If you go with #1, the main issue will be using Objective-C. Since you are targeting the Mac, make sure you enable the Garbage Collector, or else you will have to also learn memory-management. If you use Xcode 4, it's similar in spirit to Visual Studio, although the details are different. For a simple project, following the tutorials will probably be enough -- I suspect the hard part will be interacting with WCF. To make your life easier, make the interface to the service extremely simple (simple parameter types and returns).
Your question is overly broad. You have two options:
When in Rome...: download Xcode, look at example apps, read Apple's documentation, find some tutorials, and learn Mac app development the usual way.
The Devil You Know...: look into stuff like the Mono project that will let you write a Mac app in C#, so you can use your existing libraries and don't have to learn Objective-C.
Which is better depends on your needs. If you just want to get a small app done and don't have a lot of time/money, I'd go with #2. If you're concerned about quality (compatibility libraries always have their quirks), I'd go with #1. My gut says #2 is better for you.
As every programmer knows tools are important and there is no tool more important for a developer than the IDE you use to code. In the last few years the IDE-s fall into standards and it is not common to see innovation in this area. What IDE-s you can recommend as innovative and what new ideas and paradigms they introduced?
This is by far the coolest set of coding tools yet!
http://vimeo.com/36579366
I haven't used this but saw the demo video yesterday. The IDE is called code bubbles and has a unique way of showing and grouping related code together.
That said I find the intellitrace feature in Visual Studio 2010 quite innovative.
Palm's Project Ares: http://ares.palm.com/Ares/about.html
It's the IDE for the Palm webOS phones, that runs entirely as a web app. You build and run your app inside the browser, and when you're done, you deploy straight to the cloud.
I'd put my bet on Meta Programming System by Jetbrains. The concept is not new but it's the first time it has been implemented on such a huge scale with great IDE support. You create a DSL first, then write programs in that DSL and finally generate code in a target language.
I'll go for Scratch, though I wouldn't want to write a banking system using it :-)
Some cool videos of structured editor prototype that will let you directly code the AST.
This is a prototype only and I have no idea if it is still being developed.
One interesting IDE I have seen only on video is Code Bubbles. It opens code snippets as a graph of visual "bubbles". It is really interesting and definitely something I want to try.
I've been developing for Windows and *nix platforms for quite some time, and am looking to move into Mac development. I am tossing up between using ObjC/Cocoa and C++/Qt4.5.
The C++/moc semantics make more sense to me, and improving knowledge in Qt seems like a sensible thing to do given that you end up with a skill set that covers more platforms.
Am I likely to handicap my applications by skipping Cocoa?
The sample Qt applications look pretty Mac-native to me, but they are quite simple so potentially don't tell the whole story. Are there other pros to the Xcode way that Qt doesn't have, such as packaging, deployment, etc.?
Here's an easy way to answer it:
If you were developing a Windows app with .NET or MFC, would you handicap your applications by using Qt? If the answer to that is yes, then the situation is likely to be the same on the Mac.
A few negatives I can think of off the top of my head:
Licensing
Qt apps, while good, are not completely a native UI experience and there's things a native UI designer can do in Cocoa which boggle the mind. While I can't be sure that all the same functionality isn't available in Qt, I doubt it.
Qt is always a little behind. If Microsoft or Apple come out with a great new technology, you have to wait for the Qt developers to update Qt.
However, with all that said, only you can determine the business value of using Qt. If you think cross-platform development is going to be a major part of your development, then Qt might be worth it, despite the issues mentioned.
Ask yourself: how many of the best Mac applications that you know of use Qt instead of native Cocoa?
For our robotic systems, we originally wrote our control software in C++ using the cross-platform wxWidgets library (we avoided Qt due to some licensing concerns), because we felt that we had to target Windows, Linux, and Mac platforms for our end users. This is what we shipped for over a year until I started tinkering with Cocoa.
Right away, the thing that most impressed me was how quickly you could develop using Cocoa. Eventually, we decided to drop support for Linux and Windows and rewrite our entire control applications in Cocoa. What had taken us years to put together in C++ required only three months to completely reimplement in Cocoa.
Aside from the "lowest common denominator" interface issues that others have pointed out, the rapid development allowed by Cocoa has become a competitive advantage for our company. Our software has advanced far more quickly since our conversion to Cocoa, and it has allowed us as a new company with one developer to pull even with 10-year-old competitors that have 20-man development teams. This appears to be a common story in the Mac development space, where you see a lot of small teams who are able to create products that compete with those of much larger companies.
As a final note, using Cocoa gives you the ability to stay on top of the new APIs Apple is continually rolling out. We're now working on a new control interface that will make heavy use of Core Animation, something that would be painful to deal with using Qt.
I'm currently developing both with QT (actually PyQT, but it makes no difference to your question) and native Cocoa app. For me it's no brainer, I'd chose Cocoa. It's really worth time to explore Cocoa in general, there are many great concepts within the Cocoa framework, and Objective-C 2.0 as well.
I'd use Qt if you want this to be a crossplatform application.
You can have a look at the QMacCocoaViewContainer class. It acts as some kind of wrapper for generic Cocoa views, so you can also have Cocoa elements which are not officially supported by Qt.
Of course this means learning a little about Cocoa and Objective C and how a Cocoa UI would need to look like. But if you already know Qt well and if it’s not like your application is all and only about the GUI this could be a good way to go.
And don’t forget about the QMacStyle::WidgetSizePolicy or you won’t understand why your tables come out so huge.
Obviously, the best option is to use a cross platform suite that supports native widgets.
With QT4 you can build your base user interface. Then just add native support for your specific target platform.
Sure, Cocoa has a lot of fancy stuff (and you can still use them trough QT4), but let me be clear. I see a lot of fancy Apps on the AppStore, pretty ones, but most of then are just crap, expensive.. what ever. I really missed my Kate text editor, my okular viewer, my krita drawing software... those are just better than the commercial and expensive alternatives and are free. so i just tweak the source code a little bit too have a REAL native and great experience.
What if i have to use a linux app on my main computer with is a mac os x? or windows? or whatever? only?
For example, why on earth i have to buy a expensive ,fancy but far less featured image editor software for my mac like pixelmator when i can use a full featured real image manipulation software like Gimp? YES Gimp is gtk2 based which is a pain on any platform, specially on Mac because is really ugly. Gimp should be ported to QT4. Inkscape should be ported to QT4 too, and it would feel so great.
Is so simple to do.. gosh!
http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.7-snapshot/demos-macmainwindow.html
Even you can add support for the the new native lion fullscreen feature, unified title and toolbar menus, etc
I , as a user, i really care about efficient, featured, good and cross platform apps, i don't really care about developer's convenience or laziness .
I do a lot of cross-platform development (Mac, Windows, Linux), and for some projects use Qt. It is a fine framework, and provides a rich class library. If you need to deploy on multiple platforms, cannot afford to spend the time/effort on platform-specific front-ends, or the "generic" support for each platform is sufficiently good, then use Qt.
However, Qt inevitably suffers in some ways from the lowest common denominator syndrome, and sometimes does not feel quite native enough. There are also certain features that are either difficult to support, or are simply not provided in the Qt libraries. So if you can afford the time and effort, or your app really demands the attention to detail and fit & finish, then developing separate front-ends may be worth it.
In either case, you ought to be writing your back-end (aka domain) code in a platform-neutral and front-end neutral manner. This way, the front-end is easily replaced, or modified between platforms.
You could always start with a Qt front-end and go for a quick time to market, then develop a native front-end down the line.
In practice, I've noticed that a Qt app on Windows looks most "native", while on Mac there are certain subtle telltale signs that make it look/feel not quite right. And Mac users tend to have much higher expectations when it comes to UI/UX!
Since posting this, i've been learning the Cocoa / Objective-C way, and have been quite impressed. Despite what I initially thought was quite a quirky syntax, Objc appears to be a very effective language for implementing UI code, and the XCode sugar - things like Core Data and bindings - make short work of all of the boring bits.
I spent a while with the QT examples and documentation before digging into cocoa, and tend to agree with what has been said above w.r.t being slightly behind the curve and less 'aqua-ish' - albeit from a fairly trivial inspection. If I absolutely had to be build a cross-platform app i'd probably use QT rather than trying to separate out the UI code, as it seems like it would provide close-enough visuals, but for mac only purposes, Cocoa seems like a definite win.
Thanks all for your responses, they've all been very helpful!
DO NOT use Qt for a Mac app. You will get no hardware acceleration for 2D rendering, and you will not be able to deliver ADA compliance.
Depending on what kind of apps you want to write, another contender is REALbasic now called Xojo.
The move from C++ is pretty easy (I have 15 years C++ experience) and the framework and IDE extremely productive. You have the added bonus of being able to deploy to Linux and Windows with trivial effort. Their framework compiles to native code and uses native widgets so you don't have an emulated look and feel.
The big reason for learning Cocoa and coding in Objective-C is if you want to hone your iPhone skills or are chasing a really fancy user experience. If you wanted to rival the cutting edge of WPF development then I'd recommend Cocoa.