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It's been a while now since Microsoft stopped supporting Embedded Visual C++ 4.0 (eVC 4), and they don't let you use the Windows Mobile SDK with the Express version of VS 2008. Now, I'm OK because I get an MSDN license through work (including VS 2008 Pro), but I'd like to work on a couple open-source projects, and not all the other contributing developers are so lucky. As a result, they're sticking with eVC, even though it doesn't run at all on Vista.
Is there a (free!) common denominator here? An IDE that will build MFC (and/or .NET!) apps, which runs on both XP and Vista? It doesn't have to be fancy, per se, but the more VS-level niceties it has, the happier I think we'd all be with it.
Suggestions for cheap commercial-ware are also welcome, though of course the very best option would be something open-source, especially cross-platform. I think MS is doing serious damage to the WM OS by discouraging development like this.
Unfortunately I think you're out of luck. There has been some success in getting SharpDevelop to compile managed smart device apps, though there was a period where is was broken in SharpDevelop too. I don't believe that debugging directly against the device or emulator works, though, so I'd be highly inclined to not bother. Developing without a debugger is unbelievably painful.
Even with this you don't have native support. What's your option htere? Well there's CeGCC and PocketGCC, but neither of those projects has had much activity in the fast few years - I'd say they've withered and died.
So really, Visual Studio is the only viable option.
Many in the development community (including myself) complained vocally when Microsoft stopped providing a free solution for smart device development. Believe me, we sat in several closed rooms in Redmond and yelled at several people about this - and it was way back in the Studo '03 days that we started yelling. The standard response was that the development side (whom we talked to) don't handle the business side (of pricing, SKU features, etc). Unfortunately I understand that, and I believe they were telling the truth.
To make matters worse, Microsoft made the unbelievable stupid decision that in VS '08 they'd not just require Standard (like they did in VS05) but they move it back to a Professional and better SKU feature again (where it was in '03) and thereby increase the cost to do development.
So what's your recourse? I'd recommend that if you can't afford the license, then look around for programs and offers that might give it. There was a time when Microsoft provided "driver developers" a free copy if they promised to develop and sell a driver within a year. I don't think they ever checked to see that you actually did (and if they did, creating a driver that does very little is only a couple hour task). If you're a student try to get a student discount. If you play with hardware, look for a kit that comes with VS. If you have any contact with any Microsoft reps at work, complain about this feature lack. Even if it's to the Office rep.
Edit: Just FYI, I ran it up the flagpole again this morning with the Visual Studio for Devices team telling them to tell their managers to think about a free option under VS 10. No idea if it will help or change things, but I've already seen another half dozen people jump in and agree with me, so there's certainly support and pressure for the idea from the outside.
Here is an article about Windows Mobile Development Without Visual Studio. It is only for Compact Framework development and it uses SharpDevelop as an IDE. However, I don't know if is possible/legal to download and install Windows Mobile SDK without Visual Studio.
Some quick google research indicates that SharpDevelop has support for this, but it might be a bit buggy at the moment.
Well, I think most have been said by the others however if you are prepared to spend a little, then Basic4PPC might be a good choice.
If I recall it's about $50,00. Don't get fooled by the word BASIC - it's actually very powerful. It's based on the NET Framework and you can write programmes both for desktop and device. It even has an IDE which works on the device. You can find further information at Basic4PPC. If you have a look at the forum as well, you will find out that there are many users and the forum has a high activity which is very positive.
Finally, have a look at this thread over at XDA-developers. There you can find lots of goodies.
Good luck.
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I have recently heard about Magic programming language from several sources and didn't recall ever hearing about it before. It was mentioned that it is a programming language from Israel.
I did some googling and couldn't find much information about it. I couldn't find any code examples, and wikipedia didn't have any information on it either.
I think this is the site for it http://www.magicsoftware.com/en/products/?catID=70 though I am not sure, as it mentions uniPaaS instead of magic. However other material on the site indicates that this is the new name for it.
I was interested in learning more about it from it's practitioners, rather than the company. I saw several claims on the internet that it provided really fast application development, similar to claims made by RoR proponents when it came out.
How does it compare to VB?
Is it still a better RAD tool than current .net or mvc frameworks like django, ror ...etc?
How hard is it to learn?
If you can post some sample code it would be most helpful as well.
Could this site be it? Though it links back to the page above.
You're right my friend, Magic is the original name of the "programming language", nowadays is called UniPaaS (Uni Platform as a Service), I use it to develop some business application. Maybe is the fastest way to create an applications(data manipulation), you can create apps in just a few days, but like everything in life has its own drawbacks:
it's very weird so that makes it
difficult to learn.
you do not have all the control of what's happening in the background
and you have to pay a lot for licensing (servers,clients, etc)
If you are interested in learning this, you can download a "free" version of the software that only works with sqlite databases called UniPaaS Jet.
Magic Language is as it’s called today uniPaaS, it used to be Magic than eDeveloper and now uniPaaS as PachinSV menchend before.
uniPaaS is an application platform enabling enterprises, independent software vendors (ISVs) and system integrators (SIs) to more successfully build and deploy business applications.
You can download the free version of uniPaaS Jet here: http://web.magicsoftware.com/unipaas-jet-download,
try it yourself and see how easy it is to use.
Magic technology as you descried is a Magic Software Enterprises tool (uniPaaS), you can find more information on:
official website: www.magicsoftware.com/en/products/?catID=70&pageID=55
uniPaaS Jet developer group on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/unipaasJet/
Magic developer zone: devnet.magicsoftware.com/en/unipaas
Let me know if you find the information helpful
Bob
As PachinSV explained, there is a RAD once called Magic, then eDeveloper, now UniPaaS. This RAD is dedicated for database applications. Programming in this RAD does not look like anything else I know, you mostly don't write code as with usual languages, but it is nearly impossible to explain just with words. The applications are interpreted, not compiled.
As PachinSV said, when developing, you must follow UniPaaS' way of doing things. This is probably why so many people never manage to use Magic properly: if you thought like Magic before learning about it, then you will adapt to it easily; but if you have a long and successful experience using other database development tools, then often the Magic paradigm will never become natural to you. The learning curve is quite steep, you must learn a lot of things before being able to write a little application.
Previous versions stored the "code" inside a database table. The last version, UniPaas stores the code in xml files. I could send you an example, if PachinSV does not answer you before. But the files are pretty big: the smallest xml file I have in a test app is 4000 bytes, and any application is made of at least 11 files, an empty application is 7600 bytes. You must also understand that developers never use those files (they are undocumented AFAIK), they are only the storage format used internally by UniPaaS. The only way to use them is to set them up as a UniPaaS application.
I'm still an active MAGIC Developer... This is the old name used and its a completely different paradigm like some of you mentioned. I've been developing it from Magic version 8.x to eDeveloper 9.x to 10.x then renamed to UniPAAS.
The newer version is much easier to use and it is still very RAD in the sense that there is little or no code you write... a lot of the common programming tasks like IO, SQL command...etc is handled by the tool and is transparent ( so even less code to write since we use it in almost all types of applications)... Its mostly an Enterprise tool... you wouldnt use it for small application...
You can download the free version to learn the paradigm... but the enterprise licenses are expensive.. you need both the development tool and the runtime license if you want to deploy... so it can be costly for small scale projects...
I enjoy it personally, especially when you have to do quick proof of concepts or a quick data migration or porting onto any db platform and bridging any existing system through a wide range of gateways they provide with the licensed version.. It is up to date with the commonly used web technology out there...like SOAP, RIA ...
It's more popular in Europe... The HQ in the States is in Irvine... we used to have 2 branches in Canada but it closed down in 2001 .... Visit the Magic User Group on Yahoo... Its a very active forum with lots of cool people who will help you out in your quest...
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/magicu-l/
I Programmed with Magic for 6 years and found it to be a amazingly fast tool, easy to understand if you are a competent database programmmer because all operations are really about data manipulation. It is certainly a niche area develop in and because of this jobs are few and far between. As it is interpreted there are really no bugs to make. It will work with many databases/connections simultaneously but there is a big memory and processing hit.
Drawbacks :
Little control over communications between machines and devices
No mobile API as yet
Niche area so few skilled practitioners or companies willing to invest.
Good Points :
You can say you are a Magician; you can impress people with uber fast apps development (really)
It is easy to understand if you don't have a PHD in Maths
zero programming "bugs" can creep in. What you do is what you get.
Developed in The original Magic PC referred to by several of the above folks.
It is exactly this: FAST, FAST, but expensive and rigid in what it will allow you to do. It works on a tick tack toe like matrix. Dropping in commands into the various sections determines when they are run. The middle column is run indefinitely until you break the cycle. It is like a do Until loop. If you have to do an item once you put it into this infinite loop and end it after one cycle.
The first column procedures are run first, ONCE, before the infinite middle column is run. The 3rd column of commands is run after the infinite cycle, once. It is very efficient and logical once you get over the idea of an infinite loop.
Types can be specified and an associated program to present the type. Then everywhere the type is used all the settings automatically kick in. I like especially that one can write the program and 5 months later change the name of a variable and it is carried throughout the program. In fact the program does not use your name for anything. The internal name of any and all variables is hidden to the end user, so of course it is not a problem to change a name. It takes a minute to write an input program for any table. It takes a minute to write an export/import program for all the data files in the database.
Attaching to a type of database like Btrieve or SQL independent of the program itself.
I stopped using the language because they demand more for the runtime engine than I could charge for the programs I wished to run with it. Bill Gates went the opposite direction. VB is superior in control and being able to drop `10 datagridviews onto the same screen, but development is 10 times slower.
It's niche then is PROOF of concept for a program in a big company or conversion, importing, exporting for a development company. It is good for $25k programs that are database heavy and not going mobile.
uniPaaS, Magic PC
I did some Magic work around 1993. It was a DOS based 4GL that came from Israel. Haven't seen it since.
How does it compare to VB?
It doesn't.
Is it still a better RAD tool than current .net or mvc frameworks like django, ror ...etc?
If you mean "is it more Rapid", then yes, otherwise no.
How hard is it to learn?
About as hard as learning MS Access.
Coincidentally, if you want to get an idea of what it is and how it works, I've found that comparing it to MS Access is handy. It works in much the same way from a user's or developer's perspective. Obviously what happens in the background is vastly different, but if you've ever developed a form in design view in Access, Magic will seem very familiar.
Google tells me there's also MAGIC/L. All I could find about it was this blurb:
A procedural language written in
Forth. Originally ran on Z80's under
CP/M and later available for IBM-PCs
and Sun 3s.
The only Magic programming language that I know about is one used by a company called Meditech. It's a proprietary language derived from MUMPS.
The language is truly miserable - here's a sample.
I've been programming in .NET professionally for three years and am always looking to sharpen my tools. I'm a sole developer for a company that recently purchased a MSDN subscription along with Visual Studio 2008 Professional. In what ways can the subscription be useful?
I'm used to googling 80% of the day to figure out how to do what I want to do, and I've learned a ton that way. I'm having trouble seeing what the subscription gains me.
An MSDN subscription provides much more than simply an offline version of their documentation. You get access to nearly all relevant software that Microsoft makes including Windows, SQL Server, Office, etc. It also includes previous versions, as well as versions that are not yet released to the public.
It's great for testing, developing for a new platform, and for learning about new features in other Microsoft products in which you may not normally be exposed to.
The MSDN subscription isn't necessarily about access to documentation but it gives you a few key pieces of functionality.
Software licenses for Visual Studio, Office, Windows, etc.
Technical Support Incidents - For when you can't answer the question
MSDN Magazine Subscription (Yes you can get this outside of this as well)
I'm sure that there are some other things, but the license and support benefits are by far the "reasons" to have a MSDN subscription.
If you really want to grow your ability as a .NET developer the best way is to spend time around other developers using the same toolset. There are just too many tools in the .NET environment to experience them all yourself. Especially since you don't have other co-workers explorering the .NET environment with you.
If I were you, I'd check the web for any .NET user's groups located near you and attend their meetings. Those can be great places to pick up new ideas/ways of using the tools.
Among other things you get a license for Visual Studio and Office. You also get access to a wide range of operating systems and applications you may use to test your own software. For instance you may want to test your software on different versions of Windows, or if you develop software for Exchange Server you probably need to install this product without having to buy a full production license just to be able to develop software.
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I’m new to visual basic.net. I have experience in C++ programming, but never created gui with it so learning vb.net for some quick gui development. and i want to learn vb.net. I can’t install visual basic express on computer cause i’m on shared computer and such huge install is not possible on that computer. So i picked up sharpdevelop.
After searching most of the tutorial, i found out that most of tutorial written for visual studio IDE for vb and vb.net. I’m trying to learn vb.net in depth from command line to gui programs. Any good recommendation of tutorials, book ? I searched google but very few results so far. I’m looking for good learning tutorials that can help learn with sharpdevelop.
any suggestion for tutorial and books that mentions sharpdevelop in their tutorial/guide ?
Firstly - if you are thinking about heading into .net, you might want to consider starting off with c#, especially because with your background it will be a bit easier, but if you need to learn vb.net, ofc there is nothing wrong with it, just in my experience your earning potential is higher with c#, and vb.net is kind of dying out (at least in Europe).
Second point, you should focus on starting your development either for web or for win forms, this will give you a sense of direction. Learning a new language takes some dedication.
I also think you're putting yourself through unnecessary punishment by not using the tools provided by Microsoft for your development. In my experience Visual Studio, MS SQL and Microsoft Word, are the best products to ever come out of Microsoft. Even the express editions are of a good quality. If you can head over to an internet cafe and download it from there, shouldn't cause such a problem surely to have it installed on that computer, after all its going to be used for personal development, not just playing games or wasting time.
might not be the answer you wanted, but its the best advice I can give at this stage, hope it helps....!
Also this is said from personal experience, because I've been down that road, and I promise you I found developing with MS supplied IDE's much more enjoyable, and in the end, kept things viable.
I don't see how a "programming language" (like VB.NET) book is written for a specific IDE (like VS), even if the author mentions some instructions to do with VS (menus, settings, etc.), you should be able to follow along with him, because SharpDevelop simulates VS quite well.
I've never seen a .NET book which talks about doing things in SharpDevelop rather than VS, because VS is far more popular IDE, although some authors mentions the IDE as an alternate to VS.
There's a good book authored by SharpDevelop team which teaches C# techniques using their IDE, and its digital format is free, its name is Dissecting a C# Application: Inside SharpDevelop, although there's no VB.NET version, AFAIK.
Another comment, I don't see why an experienced C++ programmer would learn VB.NET, if you want to learn a robust, quick GUI .NET language, go ahead and learn C#.
Good luck,,
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I learned about Microsoft BizSpark the other day and started the sign up process. Has anyone else heard about it or had success with it?
I can't speak for BizSpark specifically (it's so new), but Microsoft has had the similar Empower program in place for 5 or so years. When our company was originally getting started, we joined the program (and participated for two years) and it was an excellent program.
The main benefit, of course, is that you get access to MSDN Subscriptions at such a low cost. Aside from that, though, it put us in touch with the local Microsoft office and gave us a clear path to working toward the typical ISV Partner relationship. You also get some technical support incidents, which are handy when/if you need to escalate an issue you're running into.
The requirements for Empower were/are pretty straightforward... basically commit to releasing a commercial software product based on the current Microsoft stack within two years.
Hope that helps... I look forward to hearing more about how BizSpark is different - or if it's simply the next evolution of Empower.
Well I have just signed up... yes of course there is an "end game" amount to pay.. but if you were going to use Microsoft technologies anyway.. then it's an awesome deal.. I have the software now (today), and there is everything I need to develop the project I am working on... Open source is excellent, don't get me wrong.. but you have to decide for the right reasons...
I think it is a great initiative, they are giving away the highest (most expensive) licenses of Visual Studio and VS Team System. With Empower you get Visual Studio Professional Edition with MSDN.
It is important to point out that this is NOT intended for consultatnts, there is a seperate program called Microsoft Action Pack Subscription that is more geared toward that audience. The Bizspark program is for software vendors, I suppouse it will have some kind of requirement similar to what Empower had, where you have to release commercial software within certain time period.
Let us know how your enrollment goes...
I joined it and empower recently. I think it is a great deal. I had an old MSDN set of software I was using and wasn't relishing the thought of spending all that money for my startup that has no current revenue.
Apparently MS really wants to get back to enticing developers to its platform.
One of the downsides I could see (or upsides depending on your view) [and this requires a health cynicism] is that MS uses this program to
identify potential markets for it to jump into and trounce the competition
identify startups it wants to purchase.
It has all your information in its database - the type of business, etc.
I still joined - no big deal, but for those who already think MS if the big bad wolf this might rub them the wrong way.
I think BizSpark is a great opportunity for startups which either
know they will use Microsoft technology
doesn't know what technology to use
The ones who doesn't know which software tools or programming language to use can test the Microsoft ones along with Open Source or other freely or inexpensive alternatives.
This way they can choose the technologies which suit them best - also when it comes to expenses for licenses - and remember to calculate the time you use to manage the licenses too.
The most enjoyable greetings
Claus Agerskov, SALDI - the Danish Open Source ERP
My $0.02 is that it's a trap. MS knows that many startups, especially the ones without venture capital (which in my book makes them "real" startups), are flocking to open source technologies both because of the cost savings and the control over your destiny -- the ability to fix bugs, modify things, and prevent vendor lockin that are the best parts of open source. MS is trying to trick them into becoming locked in. I'd steer clear. But I'd also steer clear of venture capital for similar reasons. IMHO, a startup that is going to actually go places (more than just being acquired and becoming a money sink like most bubble companies) is founded by a small group of knowledgeable people and funded out of those people's own pockets. Doing what you love because you want to, not because you're getting rich at it is why they have the drive to succeed and innovate that bigger companies don't have.
I know just the question is a bit of heresey, but I'm curious...
Sure, there are the express editions. But when Microsoft is effectively competing for 'hearts and minds' in an OSS world, it seems more than a bit counterproductive to charge devs who wholeheartedly support .NET high subscription fees for Microsoft software. It's hard to imagine that, in the context of Microsoft's overall sales, dev licenses represent such a significant revenue stream as to justify the downsides.
So my question is: do you know of any instances where MSDN subscription rates have deterred a team from adopting .NET for a project - where cost played a role in a decision to go OSS instead?
I think MS has made huge inroads to making .Net cheaper to access and work with. With competent Express versions of Visual Studio and Sql Server, the only thing you need to pay for is Windows itself (both in your dev environment and server/production environment).
The only thing holding .Net back now is it may not be the right tool for every job regardless of cost.
It does to me. It makes me ask maybe I should try and become a Microsoft MVP because they get all the software for free.
You can't buy Expression Blend and Design for anything but the highest level on the License and that just ticks me off.
I don't think so, especially with the empower program for small ISVs -- $375 gets you 5 MSDN licenses and other goodies. After that there are Microsoft Action Packs as well as the entire partner program.
I've always gotten legal, free copies of Visual Studio. You can either download the Express versions which will handle most people's needs or go to the Launch events where they literally give out copies to everyone who shows up.
.NET Framework is a free download, so really the only thing left is a box running Windows.. and I'd be willing to bet that you've got one of those kicking around somewhere.
There's no reason to purchase an MSDN subscription.
It's not a barrier to entry, but it certainly represents a glass ceiling. You get a lot of things with the Express editions, but not EVERYTHING. There's a lot of little perks that come with the Pro versions - addins for instance +cough+ Resharper +cough+. I'd say you need Visual Studio 20xx Pro at a minimum to do any mid-range to Enterprise level development.
The cost of MS developer tools was the sole reason behind my Year of Linux. It's tough seeing all the free development tools for Linux, OS X and Java. If my job didn't depend on keeping up to date with .NET, I'd leave it for dead in a heartbeat.
In my view MSDN subscriptions are not a huge deterrant, as not only are there express editions, there are also trial versions of most products, and I think a basic MSDN subscription is not that expensive.
However licencing costs and licencing complexity of certain developer tools as well as certain products can be a huge obstacle which unfortunately is often not thought about at the beginning of projects.
I am aware of a number of projects which have chosen alternative technologies due to licencing costs and licencing complexity.
I'm currently on the Empower program but I'll be paying the full fare when it runs out
for the same reason I pay A$800/year for an AutoCAD subscription - it easily saves me more time & hassle than it costs in the long run by having everything I need at my fingertips.
I think I'm getting value for money when I consider both the licenses as well as the community - most of which I suppose is free anyway.
I consider it a legitimate cost of running my business and it's tax-deductible anyway.
I am trying to restart my career, my life, etc and my previous MSDN Universal sub expired in 2005. At the time it expired, I stopped working for a while. That coincided with Microsoft changing the cost and structure of that subscription program. To acquire a similar subscription today is out of the question. I do not have the funds. I am currently developing with old technology (VB6 and ASP) and will do so until I have the funds to purchase the MSDN sub that I want. I have downloaded the "express" versions of VS 2008 and SQL 2008 but, lets be frank, any serious developer is going to want to utilize the features that arent available in "express". In exploring this issue here on StackOverflow, I have seen others talk about the Empower program. It looks promising and I shall investigate it.
But, yes, the barrier to entry is the cost. Hopefully Empower lowers that, for a while. I agree with the requirement that after it expires I will need to pay full fare. I think thats only fair.