Do languages become more verbose as they mature? It feels like each new version of VB.net gains more syntax. Is it possible to trim down some fat like the keyword "Dim"? C# also feels like it is getting more syntax since version 1.
C# has certainly gained more syntax, but in a way which makes it less verbose.
Virtually every feature in C# 3.0 allows you to do more with less code.
That's the VB idiom. All languages have an idiom, and there are plenty that go for verbose and spelled-out. Thank your lucky stars you're not WRITING IN COBOL.
C# evolved out of the C-like languages, and in the C tradition brevity and terseness are valued, hence braces, && and ||, int not integer, case-sensitive lower-cased code. In the VB idiom, long self-explanatory keywords are good, terse keywords or cryptic symbols are bad, hence MustInherit, Dim blah as Integer and case insensitivity but with a tendency to Capitalise Your Keywords. Basically, stick with the idiom of the language you're using. If you use (or have to use) VB, then get used to the verbosity - it's intentional.
There's nothing wrong with verbosity, in fact it often can be a very good thing.
I assume you have meaningful variable names? Descriptive method names? Then why is there a problem with typing 'end if' instead of '}'. Its really not an issue at all, if anything, the terseness of C# is more of a problem trying to fit as much as possible into as few characters as possible - that means it harder to read, not easier.
Okay... this feels embarrassing to admit, but I like the use of Dim in VB.NET. Yes, it's not serving any particular use that couldn't be inferred by the use of "As" later... but to me, there's something absolutely "beat you over the head" obvious about having declaration statements start with Dim. It means when someone's looking through the code, they don't even have to think about what those statements mean, even for a microsecond. Languages like C# have declarations that are obvious enough, but if you're just browsing by it you may have to consider it for a moment (even the most brief of moments).
There's something "extra obvious" about having a special keyword at the start of certain kinds of statements. In VB.NET, assignments start with "Dim" and calls to methods (can) start with "Call", giving them a kind of "left side uniformity" that If, For, and other constructs already have: you get the barest gist of what's going on with that line just by looking at the very start of it. Using these almost gives you the equivalent of a left-hand column that you can browse down extremely quickly and get the gist of what's going on on some kind of basic level ("Okay, we're declaring things here... we're calling to other things here...").
That might seem irrational or even silly to some people... but it does make the purpose of each statement explicit enough that it feels faster (at least to me) to browse through... especially when browsing through unfamiliar code written by others.
I guess, in the end, it comes down to "different strokes for different folks". I don't mind typing the extra three characters for that obviousness of purpose.
VB.NET is great as it is, it brings more clarity in code.
For instance I love the fact how you can describe what your ending.
End while vs }
End for vs }
End if vs }
And really the verbosity isn't an issue while typing because of intellisence.
Verbosity and readability often go hand-in-hand. Lately I've come to fear the word "Elegant", because it generally translates into "Fun but less immediately readable"
Of course the person writing the code always says "Well it's MORE readable to me because it's shorter/more elegant.
that's crap. It's always easier to read something more explicit unless you have so much trouble reading that it takes you two hours to get through a Dick and Jane novel.
Note that I'm not talking about redundancies, just being explicit and spelling out your desires.
As a programmer it's much MUCH more fun to write elegant expressions, but I've found myself looking at the "elegance" of others and even my own "elegance" after a while and I'll change it to something more explicit, readable and reliable when I realize that although it was fun to write, I just spent more time reading/debugging it than it took to write in the first place.
On the other hand, DIM is just stupid :)
I'm slightly out of my depth here.
I like what everyone calls verbose. Does no one ever wonder my we don't have multiple nested parenthesis in any natural languages (e.g. English)? In fact nested parenthesis really need the convention of indentation to make then legible at all. In natural languages we use verbose clauses and multiple sentences, to avoid, or at least explain layering parenthesis.
Also in a certain sense I wouldn't say vb has much more syntax than c# at all. It doesn't really have many more lexical tokens in a certain block of code than would c# (Does it?). It has about the same syntax as c# it just has longer syntactical tokens, 'End Sub' instead of '}' for example. For most pieces of syntactical plumbing, the VB version will just be more typing (if you are sworn off intelisense), Also '}' is ambiguous compared to 'End Sub' since it also means 'End If' and whole load of other things. This doesn't make it more concise in a certain sense, There are still the same number of tokens in the code, but from a smaller subset of more curt token markers. But different tokens in C# have different meanings depending on the context, which requires you still to have that nested level in your mind as you read the code, in order to get, for example what kind of code block you are reading if you lose your place, even though the end of the code block could be in view you might have to look up to see the beginning of the code block. Even where this is not the case is && really better than AndAlso?
Dim I suppose is quite useless, an extra lexical token compared to c#, but I suppose at least it's consistent with linq, vb doesn't need the var command. I can't think of any other candidates for the chop. Maybe I don't have the imagination.
I'm sure someone is going to come along and tell me how wrong I am :) My best guess this is to do with personal preference anyway.
Then C# should get rid of ";" at the end of every fricking line :)
Default should be easy way to go such "New Line" instead of a ";" if you want exceptions such 2 statements in the same line then you need use a separator such as ":" or ";"
Some people like that. I suspect things like Dim are left in for legacy reasons as much as anything else.
VB does have some nice short cuts though. For example the conversion routines. Eg CInt, CStr etc
OK I'm an old C programmer that came to .Net via C#, and Now I'm working in VB.Net
I have to say at first I was appalled by the verbosity, but having gone back to
C# for I bit, I have to admit I like VB.Net a bit more now.
I can write VB code that reads better and is less cryptic and it really doesn't take
up much more space (especially if you put all your C# curly braces on their own line)
Also the editor in Visual Studio takes care of most of the verbosity for me.
I like how Dim X As List(Of SomeType) reads as opposed to List<sometype> X
Semi-colons are a nuisance now. Curly braces are annoying.
I do miss the square brackets for array refs, a little bit though.
Ever since I saw this...
lowercase keywords?
...I've been hoping it would get included in the language. It's amazing how much more readable it is Without All The Capitalized Keywords.
C# is not a user-friendly language and takes many MORE lines of code to accomplish the same task as VB.Net. Optional parameters, with/end with, etc. are not supported within C#. Even db connections take more code in C#. Star Wars fans love the C# though, as you get to talk like Yoda while you're programming.
My $0.02: VB.Net's intellisense features, shortcuts, logical readability, etc. make it a superior language.
Yes I know what you mean, it can get a bit long winded, I find it becomes hard to read due to there being to too many keywords and making it hard to see the logic behind it all but hey some people like it.
I have just recently started writing all my stuff in C# and I must say I have come to like it a lot more since I just cut of VB and said right C# from now on, so if you are that worried your could always just switch.
Use a pre-processor... and loose any hope to be read by anybody else (or yourself in some years, perhaps...).
I will answer what is often answered to people complaining that Lua is verbose: if you want a concise language, you know where to find it. There are tons of languages around, even if you restrict yourself to the CLR, so why complain about the one you chose? (I know, you might work on a project you didn't started, etc.).
That's not a flame or something. There are many languages for a reason. Some like them super-concise, close of mathematical notations, others like them (more or less) verbose, finding that more readable. There are languages for all tastes!
for one thing that i don't like about VB is this
print("ByVal sender as object, ByVal e as EventArgs");
vs C#
object sender, Eventargs e
Doing so will only make your code harder to read.
Related
This is a question with no definite answer so apologies if I posted this wrongly however at my place of work alot of the code I see written by our developers have function names with the keyword 'should', must I add they base this on 'should' and 'should not'. From a point of semantics, whats your view on this? I've mentioned before that I don't believe this should be used because it has too many possibilities (where does it end) however they insist its a good practice.
Example use;
$this->it_should_render_template_partially($params);
$this->it_should_show_module_parameters($params);
$this->it_should_not_return_module_parameters($params);
I am curious on others thoughts. Just to add, this is production code and not unit tests.
While I like long, descriptive, names, I don't like redundancy. When I read the documentation of a function, I expect it to do what it is supposed to do. Yes, functions are written by humans that make a lot of mistakes, so they can have bugs, which means they do not behave as intended. But this is implied when one uses a function. We hope that out functions do what they should (and we try to make sure that is the case using tests). But specifying the should part in the name of a function is just redundant, which is, in my opinion, a bad practice, as it results in longer names, harder to read/write.
What is the significance of declaring variables in VB/VBA like so:
Private m_sName As String
Private m_lAge As Long
As opposed to;
Private m_sName As String
Private m_lAge As Long
I am working on a project which up to now uses the latter, and has done since long before I joined the project. Two new developers have joined the team and have begun to use the former. I have seen such pagination previously and wondered; what is its heritage and what advantages/disadvantages does it have? My own preference has always been the latter and remains so, as much for consistency as anything else.
In the days when code editors were much dumber and were little more the text editors it was easier to maintain the "column-style" (the former example) of code. However even then it could be a pain when changes would require manual re-orginisation of code.
But then intellisense and auto-formatting came along and made it really difficult to maintain the "column-style" formatting code. Change something in the line and the IDE automatically eliminated "unnecessary" white-space.
I'm all for readability but not to this extent, stick with latter style.
It's only a matter of readability.
Multiple whitespaces in VB/VBA are ignored.
I'd use the former because it's more readable, but Visual Studio has its own formatting rules and will remove extra whitespaces, so I have to use the second form. :)
This is a coding convention from old C-days, where you had endless structs and you wanted to see the types and variable names starting in the same column. Do as you prefer!
Easier to read, in my opinion. You can clearly see the variable name and type in the former, whilst the latter becomes more difficult with more variable declarations.
I've always hated comments that fill half the screen with asterisks just to tell you that the function returns a string, I never read those comments.
However, I do read comments that describe why something is done and how it's done (usually the single line comments in the code); those come in really handy when trying to understand someone else's code.
But when it comes to writing comments, I don't write that, rather, I use comments only when writing algorithms in programming contests, I'd think of how the algorithm will do what it does then I'd write each one in a comment, then write the code that corresponds to that comment.
An example would be:
//loop though all the names from n to j - 1
Other than that I can't imagine why anyone would waste valuable time writing comments when he could be writing code.
Am I right or wrong? Am I missing something? What other good use cases of comments am I not aware of?
Comments should express why you are doing something not what you are doing
It's an old adage, but a good metric to use is:
Comment why you're doing something, not how you're doing it.
Saying "loop through all the names from n to j-1" should be immediately clear to even a novice programmer from the code alone. Giving the reason why you're doing that can help with readability.
If you use something like Doxygen, you can fully document your return types, arguments, etc. and generate a nice "source code manual." I often do this for clients so that the team that inherits my code isn't entirely lost (or forced to review every header).
Documentation blocks are often overdone, especially is strongly typed languages. It makes a lot more sense to be verbose with something like Python or PHP than C++ or Java. That said, it's still nice to do for methods & members that aren't self explanatory (not named update, for instance).
I've been saved many hours of thinking, simply by commenting what I'd want to tell myself if I were reading my code for the first time. More narrative and less observation. Comments should not only help others, but yourself as well... especially if you haven't touched it in five years. I have some ten year old Perl that I wrote and I still don't know what it does anymore.
Something very dirty, that I've done in PHP & Python, is use reflection to retrieve comment blocks and label elements in the user interface. It's a use case, albeit nasty.
If using a bug tracker, I'll also drop the bug ID near my changes, so that I have a reference back to the tracker. This is in addition to a brief description of the change (inline change logs).
I also violate the "only comment why not what" rule when I'm doing something that my colleagues rarely see... or when subtlety is important. For instance:
for (int i = 50; i--; ) cout << i; // looping from 49..0 in reverse
for (int i = 50; --i; ) cout << i; // looping from 49..1 in reverse
I use comments in the following situations:
High-level API documentation comments, i.e. what is this class or function for?
Commenting the "why".
A short, high-level summary of what a much longer block of code does. The key word here is summary. If someone wants more detail, the code should be clear enough that they can get it from the code. The point here is to make it easy for someone browsing the code to figure out where some piece of logic is without having to wade through the details of how it's performed. Ideally these cases should be factored out into separate functions instead, but sometimes it's just not do-able because the function would have 15 parameters and/or not be nameable.
Pointing out subtleties that are visible from reading the code if you're really paying attention, but don't stand out as much as they should given their importance.
When I have a good reason why I need to do something in a hackish way (performance, etc.) and can't write the code more clearly instead of using a comment.
Comment everything that you think is not straightforward and you won't be able to understand the next time you see your code.
It's not a bad idea to record what you think your code should be achieving (especially if the code is non-intuitive, if you want to keep comments down to a minimum) so that someone reading it a later date, has an easier time when debugging/bugfixing. Although one of the most frustrating things to encounter in reading someone else's code is cases where the code has been updated, but not the comments....
I've always hated comments that fill half the screen with asterisks just to tell you that the function returns a string, I never read those comments.
Some comments in that vein, not usually with formatting that extreme, actually exist to help tools like JavaDoc and Doxygen generate documentation for your code. This, I think, is a good form of comment, because it has both a human- and machine-readable format for documentation (so the machine can translate it to other, more useful formats like HTML), puts the documentation close to the code that it documents (so that if the code changes, the documentation is more likely to be updated to reflect these changes), and generally gives a good (and immediate) explanation to someone new to a large codebase of why a particular function exists.
Otherwise, I agree with everything else that's been stated. Comment why, and only comment when it's not obvious. Other than Doxygen comments, my code generally has very few comments.
Another type of comment that is generally useless is:
// Commented out by Lumpy Cheetosian on 1/17/2009
...uh, OK, the source control system would have told me that. What it won't tell me is WHY Lumpy commented out this seemingly necessary piece of code. Since Lumpy is located in Elbonia, I won't be able to find out until Monday when they all return from the Snerkrumph holiday festival.
Consider your audience, and keep the noise level down. If your comments include too much irrelevant crap, developers will just ignore them in practice.
BTW: Javadoc (or Doxygen, or equiv.) is a Good Thing(tm), IMHO.
I also use comments to document where a specific requirement came from. That way the developer later can look at the requirement that caused the code to be like it was and, if the new requirement conflicts with the other requirment get that resolved before breaking an existing process. Where I work requirments can often come from different groups of people who may not be aware of other requirements then system must meet. We also get frequently asked why we are doing a certain thing a certain way for a particular client and it helps to be able to research to know what requests in our tracking system caused the code to be the way it is. This can also be done on saving the code in the source contol system, but I consider those notes to be comments as well.
Reminds me of
Real programmers don't write documentation
I wrote this comment a while ago, and it's saved me hours since:
// NOTE: the close-bracket above is NOT the class Items.
// There are multiple classes in this file.
// I've already wasted lots of time wondering,
// "why does this new method I added at the end of the class not exist?".
Can anyone make really a good case ( :-) ) for being case sensitive?
C#: case sensitive
VB.NET: not case sensitive
C++: case sensitive
...
Worse part: XML which is used inside a language like VB.NET is case sensitive.
I was making the case that it is ridiculous and can only cause harm after we found a bug in our system due to the fact that XML had both Value and value nodes...
I am asked over and over in comments
"Perhaps you can come up with a single
argument for why case insensitive is
the right choice in such a world?"
Here is an example:
I see it analogous to the issue of: URL's should be case sensitive?
www.cnn.com <> Www.cNN.com ?
Of course they should be the same, ID theft heaven! because humans don't put that much attention to 2 strings that are the same but might have otherwise different casing. Programmers are humans. So getAge() and getage() are the same in most human's minds.
Please notice: I do not think we want the code to actually have a function defined as getAget() and then have code calling it getage(), VS (vb.net) will automatically correct getaget to getAge. So the code is clear and the programmer is aware of the correct capitalization. My point is: good IDE makes the issue non relevant, but it works better in a non case-sesnsetive language like vb.net then lets say c#.
Reference: here
Case rules depend on culture. Do you want a programming language where a variable i is sometimes considered to be the same as one called I and sometimes they're different variables? (That's not a made-up example, btw. In Turkish, I is not an upper-case i.
Honestly, it's pretty simple. Do you want the compiler to correct you when you make a typo, or do you want it to guess at what you meant? The latter leads to bugs, as you found out. VB assumes "oh, you probably meant the same thing, that's ok, we won't stop you", and XML took you literally.
Your bug didn't occur because case sensitivity is bad, it occurred because being sloppy is bad. Arbitrarily changing case may, at best, cause no problems, and at worst it will cause errors. Assume the worst, and be consistent with your case. Which, incidentally, is what case sensitive languages force you to do. Whether or not your tools are case sensitive, the programmer should be case sensitive. Being case sensitive saves you a lot of trouble as long as the world features insensitive as well as sensitive tools. If we could remake the world so that everything was case insensitive, a lot of the reasons in favor of sensitivity would go away. but we can't.
A little side note of course:
In many languages, it is common to give variables and types the same names, but with different capitalization:
Foo foo; // declare a variable foo of type Foo
Of course you could argue that "you shouldn't do that", but it's convenient, and it immediately tells the reader what type the variable has. It allows us to create a Log class, and a log object. And since the purpose of this object is to log, the name is kinda obvious.
And a final point to consider:
Case matters in real languages. A word that begins with upper-case is different from the same one but with leading lower-case. The word "worD" is not correct english. Information is encoded in the case, which makes text easier to read. It tells us when we encounter a name, for example, or when a sentence begins, which is handy. Allowing people to ignore case rules makes text harder to read. And since code should generally be written as readable as possible, why shouldn't we do the same in programming? Allow the case to encode important information. In many languages, Foo is a type, and foo is a variable. That's important information. I want to know this when I program. If I see a function called "Getage", I wonder if that's some English word I've never heard before. But when I see "GetAge", I immediately know that it should be read as the word "Get" followed by the word "Age".
By the way, here's a nice example of the fun surprises you can run into in case sensitive languages.
Slop is never a good idea in a programming language. You want things to be as specific as possible. You never want your language to guess at anything and it should allow as few ways to solve a given problem as possible.
As for a specific answer, how about readability? Doesn't stoRetroData visually differ quite a bit from storeTRodAtA? Not that anyone would do such a thing, but what's the point in allowing it?
I can't come up with any reason to allow ignoring case.
At least that's my opinion--but your mileage may vary.
Edit: I probably should have started this out with a disclaimer:
I learned to program in basic and had this same thought fleetingly about 18 years ago. Trust me, it's one of those things you'll look back on in 20 years and go "Oh, yeah, I was pretty wrong about that" (as I am right now)
History It is the way it has been done. The XML is VB.NET is case sensitive because the XML standard requires it
Internationalization Are we going to support case in all languages (French, Japanese, Hebrew, Klingon, etc.)?
Several case sensitive languages nowadays are that way because the languages they were based on were case sensitive and the transition would be easier. Personally I prefer case sensitive, but Jeff Atwood wrote a pretty good article on why case sensitivity may no longer be necessary.
Couple of reasons.
Finding things, with case-insensitive I'd have to have 'case-insensitive' flag about everywhere. With UTF-8 that should be also aware of Klingon smallcase..
More importaintly, CamelCasing, CAMelcaSing. It's not pretty, but it's used a lot and is fairly sane. Is nigh impossible with case-insensitivity.
Language parity, for example xsd.exe (shipped with VS200x) can generate you classes for xsd that you supply. What would be your "Value" named when you also have "value"? So this takes out yet another possible impedance.
Case is good in programming languages, but rather than use it in symbol names we should use it as it was originally intended- to delimit the beginning of a sentence or command or a proper name. For example:
Var test = 0;
Console.writeline(test);
Test = test + 1;
Console.writeline(test);
So beautiful,... :P
I find case-insensitivity to be just silly. You should follow the capitalization of the original declaration. I can't see any good reasons for not doing so beside being too lazy to type TheRealName instead of therealname.
In fact, I would never even consider using a case-insensitive language.
Most languages give guidelines to separate different words of a name by underscores (python, C etc.) or by camel-casing (Java). However the problem is when to consider the names as separate. The options are:
1) Do it at every instance when separate words from the English dictionary occur e.g. create_gui(), recv_msg(), createGui(), recvMsg() etc.
2) Use some intuition to decide when to do this and when not to do this e.g. recvmsg() is OK, but its better to have create_gui() .
What is this intuition?
The question looks trivial. But it presents a problem which is common and takes at least 5 seconds for each instance whenever it appears.
I always do your option 1, and as far as I can tell, all modern frameworks do.
One thing that comes to mind that just sticks names together is the standard C library. But its function names are often pretty cryptic anyway.
I'm probably biased as an Objective-C programmer, where things tend to be quite spelled out, but I'd never have a method like recvMsg. It would be receiveMessage (and the first parameter should be of type Message; if it's a string, then it should be receiveString or possibly receiveMessageString depending on context). When you spell things out this way, I think the question tends to go away. You would never say receivemessage.
The only time I abbreviate is when the abbreviation is more clear than the full version. createGUI is good because "GUI" (gooey) is the common way we say it in English. createGraphicalUserInterface is actually more confusing, so should be avoided.
So to the original question, I believe #1 is best, but coupled with an opposition to unclear abbreviations.
One of the most foolish naming choices ever made in Unix was creat(), making a nonsense word to save one keystroke. Code is written once and read many times, so it should be biased towards ease of reading rather than writing.
For me, and this is just me, I prefer to follow whatever is conventional for the language, thus camelCase for Java and C++, underscore for C and SQL.
But whatever you do, be consistent within any source file or project. The reader of your code will thank you; seeing an identifier that is inconsistent with most others makes the reader pause and ask "is something different going on with this identifier? Is there something here I should be noticing?"
Or in other words, follow the Principal of Least Surprise.
Edit: This got downmodded why??
Just follow coding style, such moments usually well described.
For example:
ClassNamesInCamelNotaionWithFirstLetterCapitalized
classMethod()
classMember
CONSTANTS_IN_UPPERCASE_WITH_UNDERSCORE
local_variables_in_lowercase_with_underscores