Related
Closed. This question is opinion-based. It is not currently accepting answers.
Want to improve this question? Update the question so it can be answered with facts and citations by editing this post.
Closed 5 years ago.
Improve this question
I have always liked the documentation on Java APIs, generally speaking, but I know some people consider them lacking. So I'm wondering, what do you consider a good example of API documentation?
Please, include a link or an actual example in any answer. I want to have references that I (and others, of course) can use to improve our own documents.
A good documentation MUST have:
datatypes specs - often more essential than actual functions. Do NOT treat this lightly.
function specs (this is obvious). Including What given function does, why it does it (if not obvious), and caveats if any.
an introduction document that binds the whole into a logical entity, explaining the intentions, correct usage patterns and ideas beyond the scope of actual API code. Normally you are given 50 different functions and you don't know which must be used, which shouldn't be used outside of specific cases, which are recommended to more obscure alternatives and why must they be used that way.
examples. Sometimes they are more important than all the rest
I know how to draw an arbitrary shape of arbitrary color in GTK+. I still have no clue why a change of drawing color requires three quite long lines of very obscure, quite unintuitive lines of code. Remembering SVGAlib's setcolorRGB(r,g,b); draw(x1,y1,x2,y2); I find it really hard to comprehend what possessed the authors of GTK+ to complicate things so much. Maybe if they explained the underlying concepts instead of just documenting functions that use them, I'd understand...
Another example: yesterday I got an answer that allowed me to understand SQLite. I understood a function extracting data from a column returns signed long long. I understood the integer columns could be 1,2,4,6 and 8 bytes long. I understood I can define a column as "UNSIGNED INT8", or "TINYINT". I didn't quite get what "affinity" meant, I just knew both had "INTEGER" affinity. I spent hours seeking whether timestamps should be UNSIGNED INTEGER or INT8, whether INT8 is 8-digits or 8-bytes, and what is the name of that esoteric 6-byte int?
What I missed was that "UNSIGNED INT8", "TINYINT" and the like are all a syntactic sugar synonyms for "INTEGER" type (which is always signed long long), and the lengths given are for internal disk storage only, are adjusted automatically and transparently to fit any value on least number of bits and are totally invisible and inaccessible from the API side.
Actually the iPhone (really Mac Cocoa/framework) documentation has gotten pretty good. The features I like are:
Very easy jump to docs from the API.
Well formatted and the code snippets
you would want to copy and paste
(like method signatures) stand out.
Links to projects with sample code
right from the docs.
Automated document refresh mechanism,
but by default docs are all local to
start (so you can live with a flaky
internet connection).
Easy way to switch between variants
of documentation (to see different
versions of the OS), and also select
which sets of documentation to run
searches against.
An overview section explains what the
class is for, followed by a section
breaking out methods grouped by
purpose (methods to create and
object, methods to query for data,
methods to work with type
conversions, etc), followed by the
detailed method explanations.
I also personally really liked Javadoc and the Java system documentation (I used that for many years), I found a benefit there was it was a little easier to make your own custom docs for your own classes that flowed well with the system docs. XCode lets you also use Doxygen to generate documentation for your own classes, but it would take a but more work to format it as well as the system class docs, in part because the system framework documents have more formatting applied.
A good API will have the following characteristics:
Easy to learn
Easy to use, even without documentation
Hard to misuse
Easy to read and maintain code that uses it
Sufficiently powerful to satisfy requirements
Easy to extend
Appropriate to audience
The most common mistake I see in API design is when developers feel auto-generated XML commenting is sufficient, and then precede to auto-generate their API based off of the XML comments. Here's what I'm talking about:
///<summary>
/// Performs ObscureFunction to ObscureClass using ObscureArgument
///</summary>
void ObscureClass.ObscureFunction(ObscureArgument) { ... }
API's like the one above are only counter-productive and frustrate the developer using the API. Good API documentation should give developers hints as to how to use API and give them insight into certain facets of the API they otherwise would not notice.
I personally believe a perfect example of good documentation is PHP's documentation:
For an example:
http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.fopen.php
I think effective documentation includes:
Parameter listing
(Useful) description of the parameter
If they parameters are a string, list
out and EXPLAIN every possible
possible parameter
Return values on both successful
execution and non-successful
execution
Any exceptions/errors it can raise
Examples (THE MOST IMPORTANT imo)
Optionally:
Changelog
Notes/Examples from other users
Whenever I look up something in the PHP documentation I almost know exactly how to use it without having to scour the internet to find "better" examples. Usually the only time which I need to search the internet is when I need to find how to use a set of functions for a specific purpose. Otherwise, I think the PHP documentation is the greatest example of excellent documentation.
What is think is an example of a alright documentation is Python's:
http://docs.python.org/py3k/library/array.html
It lists out the methods but it doesn't do a good job of actually explaining in depth what it is, and how to use it. Especially when you compare it to the PHP docs.
Here is some really bad documentation: Databinder Dispatch. Dispatch is a Scala library for HTTP that abstracts away the (Java) Apache Commons HTTP library.
It uses a lot of functional-syntax magic which not everyone is going to be very clear on, but provides no clear explanation of it, nor the design decisions behind it. The Scaladocs aren't useful because it isn't a traditional Java-style library. To really understand what is going on, you basically have to read the source code and you have to read a load of blog posts with examples.
The documentation succeeds in making me feel stupid and inferior and it certainly doesn't succeed in helping me do what I need to do. The flipside is most of the documentation I see in the Ruby community - both RDoc and in FAQs/websites/etc. Don't just do the Javadoc - you need to provide more comprehensive documentation.
Answer the question: "how do I do X with Y?" You may know the answer. I don't.
My main criteria is - tell me everything I need to know and everything I'll ever want to know.
QT has pretty decent docs:
http://doc.qt.digia.com/4.5/index.html
Win32 MSDN is also pretty good although it didn't age well.
The java docs are horrible to me. They constantly tell me everything I don't want to know and nothing of what I do want to know. The .NET docs has a similar tendency although the problem there is mostly the extreme wordyness, overflow of so much superfluous details and so much god damn pages. Why can't I see both the summary and the methods of a class in the same page?
I like Twitter's documentation. To me a good API is up to date, easy to read and contains examples.
I think that a good API document needs to clearly explain:
What problem this API solves
When you should use it
When you shouldn't use it
Actual code showing "best practice" usage of the API
Not quite API documentation but nevertheless quite useful is the Oracle database documentation, e.g. for the SELECT statement. I like the inclusion of diagrams which helps to clarify the usage for example.
Just a few thoughts...
Examples - win32 API documentation is better than iPhone's because of:
(short) code examples
I vote for any API doc with small and make-sense examples
Don't ever never show "Form1", "asdf", "testing users" in screen shots or sample codes
good API is solving real world problems and there should be some meaningful examples
Don't auto-gen doc
documentation should not be done during writing code (or by the same guy)
doc is for a stranger, whom the programmers usually don't care of
Avoid ___V2 version of API
but it's not a doc issue
Basically, tell the story of the class at the class level. Why is this here? What should it do? What should be in here? Who wrote it?
Tell the story of methods at the method level. What does this do? No matter how accurate your methods names are, 20-30 characters just won't always cut it for descriptiveness.
#author:
Who wrote this? Who's proud of it? Who should be ashamed of their work?
Interface level documentation tells me:
what should this do?
what will it return?
Implementation level documentation tells me:
how does it do it? what kind of algorithm? what sort of system load?
what conditions might cause a problem? will null input cause an issue? are negative numbers okay?
Class level documentation tells me:
what goes here? what kind of methods should I expect to find?
what does this class represent?
#Deprecated tells me:
why is this planned for removal?
when is it expected to be removed?
what is the suggested replacement?
If something is final:
why didn't you want me to extend this?
If something is static:
remind me in the class level doc, at least implicitly.
In general: you're writing these for the next developer to use if and when you hit the lottery. You don't want to feel guilty about quitting and buying a yacht, so pay a bit of attention to clarity, and don't assume you're writing for yourself.
As the side benefit, when someone asks you to work with the same code two years from now and you've forgotten all about it, you're going to benefit massively from good in-code documentation.
First point for a great API-documentation is a good naming of the API itself. The names of methods and parameters should be say all. If the language in question is statically typed, use enums instead of String- or int-constants as parameters, to select between a limited set of choices. Which options are possible can now be seen in the type of the parameter.
The 'soft-part' of documentation (text, not code) should cover border-cases (what happens if I give null as parameter) and the documentation of the class should contain a usage-example.
Good documentation should have at least the following:
When an argument has additional limitations beyond its type, they need to be fully specified.
Description of the [required] state of an object before calling the method.
Description of the state of an object after calling the method.
Full description of error information provided by the method (return values, possible exceptions). Simply naming them is unacceptable.
Good example: Throws ArgumentOutOfRangeException if index is less than 0 -or- index is greater than or equal to Count.
Bad example: Returns 0 for success or one of the following E_INVALIDARG, etc... (without specifying what makes an argument invalid). This is standard "FU developer" approach taken in the PS3 SDK.
In addition, the following are useful:
Description of the state of an object if an exception is thrown by the method.
Best practices regarding classes and groups of classes (say for exceptions in .NET) in the API.
Example usage.
Based on this:
An example of great documentation is the MSDN library.
To be fair, the online version of this does suffer from difficulty of navigation in cases.
An example of terrible documentation is the PS3 SDK. Learning an API requires extensive testing of method arguments for guessing what may or may not be the actual requirements and behavior of any given method.
IMO examples are the best documentation.
I really like the Qt4 Documentation, it first confronts you only with the essential information you need to get things working, and if you want to dig deeper, it reveals all the gory details in subsections.
What I really love, is the fact that they built the whole documentation into Qt Creator, which provides context sensitive help and short examples whenever you need them.
One thing I've always wanted to see in documentation: A "rationale" paragraph for each function or class. Why is this function there? What was it built for? What does it provide that cannot be achieved in any other way? If the answer is "nothing" (and surprisingly frequently it is), what is it a shorthand for, and why is that thing important enough to have its own function?
This paragraph should be easy to write - if it's not, it's probably a sign of a dubious interface.
I have recently come across this documentation (Lift JSON's library), which seems to be a good example of what many people have asked for: nice overview, good example, use cases, intent, etc.
i like my documentation to have a brief overview at the top, with fully featured examples below, and discussions under these! I'm surprised that few include simple function arguments with their required variable types and default values, especially in php!
I'm afraid i can't really give an example because i havent trawled through to find which ones my favourite, however i know this probably doesn't count because its unofficial but Kohana 3.0's Unofficial Wiki By Kerkness is just brilliant! and the Kohana 2.34 documentation is pretty well laid out too, well at least for me. What do you guys think?
Most people have listed the points making up good API documentation, so I am not going to repeat those (data type specs, examples, etc.). I'm just going to provide an example which I think illustrates how it should be done:
Unity Application Block (Go to the Download section for the CHM)
All the people involved in this project have done a great job of documenting it and how it should be used. Apart from the API reference and detailed method description, there are a lot of articles and samples which give you the big picture, the why and how. The projects with such good documentation are rare, at least the ones I use and know about.
The only criteria for documentation quality is that it speeds up development. If you need to know how something works, you go and read docs. One doc is better than another if you've understood everything from first doc faster than from from second.
Any other qualities are subjective. Styles, cross-references, descriptions… I know people who likes to read books. Book-styled doc (with contents/index/etc.) will be good for him. Another my friend likes to doc everything inside code. When he downloads new library, he gets sources and "reads" them instead of docs.
I, personally, like JavaDocs. Like Apple dev docs with the exception of lower-level parts, for example, Obj-C runtime (reference part) is described awfully. Several website APIs have docs I like also.
Don't like MSDN (it's good in general but there are too many variants of the same document, I get lost often).
Documentation is only a part of the big picture, API design. And one could argue the latter is much more important than just the naming. Think of meaningful non-duplicating method names, etc.
I would definitely recommend watching Josh Bloch's presentation about this:
http://www.infoq.com/presentations/effective-api-design OR http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAb7hSCtvGw
This covers not only what you're looking for but much more.
Lots of practical, real-world examples are a must. The recent rewrite of jQuery's API documentation is a good example, as well as Django's legendary docs.
The best documentation I've found is Python. You can use sphinx to generate the source documentation into HTML, LaTeX and others, and also generate docs from source files; the API doc you are looking for.
API docs is not only the quality of the final documentation, but also how easy is for the developers and/or technical writers to actually write it, so pick a tool that make the work easier.
Most things about good documentation have already been mentioned, but I think there is one aspect about the JavaDoc way of API documentation that is lacking: making it easy to distinguish between the usage scenarios of all the different classes and interfaces, especially distinguishing between classes that should be used by a library client and those that should not.
Often, JavaDoc is pretty much all you get and usually there is no package documentation page. One is then confronted with a list of hundreds or even more of classes: where and how to start? What are typical ways of using the library?
It would be good if there were conventions of how to make it easy to provide this information as part of JavaDoc. Then the generated API documentation could allow for different views for different groups of people -- at a minimum two groups: those who implement the library and those who use it.
I find Google APIs a beautiful example of Good documentation API.
They have:
Bird's eyes view of the entire APIs structure
Overviews of the main features of the single API
Nice and colored examples for a quick feedback
Detailed references
A blog that keep you updated
A google groups that documents problems and solutions
Videos
FAQ
Articles
Presentations
Code Playground
A search engine to crawl inside a pile of documentation
That's it!
When I play with google APIs documentation site, I feel at home.
Go to the Doxygen site and look at the examples of the HTML that it generates. Those are good:
http://www.doxygen.nl/results.html
Closed. This question is opinion-based. It is not currently accepting answers.
Want to improve this question? Update the question so it can be answered with facts and citations by editing this post.
Closed 4 years ago.
Improve this question
I have noticed I do not code as much as I use to. Today I dedicate more time to analysis and design, then I communicate that design to programmers. Then they do the coding. This has affected my coding productivity, because I must consult references and rely on intellisense. Things are becoming more complex everyday
Now, here is the irony. If I were to hire a programmer and ask him/her to sit in front of a computer, I may ask to do some coding and I would check abilities. I would evaluate them based on their use of memory vs. consulting references. Maybe I will prefer that programmer who did not consult too much, but who knows what they are doing.
What is your opinion and experience?
I would say that a developer who knows how to find the answers is better than one who has an overall good knowledge already. I find that intellisense is a good tool for finding answers, besides it is too much to remember all method names, arguments, overloads, etc.
I use memory to get me into the right general area (e.g. knowing which classes to use or at least which namespace they'll be in) and then often Intellisense/MSDN for the exact method name or arguments to use.
Having said that, Stack Overflow is improving my ability to code without any references (or even compilation) - I'm sure code will just work out of the box for me more often now than it used to. (I tend to post and then check the code works, add links to MSDN etc - assuming I'm reasonably confident in the approach.)
Someone knowing what resources are available, and how to find the answers, and how to effectively debug - these are qualities I look for now in prospective employees.
I used to consult my memory only, but two things have happened:
Class libraries have gotten larger, so has the number of languages available
The ratio of programming-related memory to personal-life-related memory has shifted away from code
Programming today is also eight times harder than it was when I started. I used to work on 8-bit machines, now I'm working on 64-bit ones. :)
I once was at a job interviewed with the CTO of a company. He asked a question based on a real life problem the company had a while back and solved. It was a multi step problem.
I was standing in front of a whiteboard working through my solution and struggling through a particular part, a part I would use google for before even attempting it, had I been tasked with solving this problem for real instead of for an interview. He asked me at that point, "would you do anything different if this wasn't an interview question." I responded, "Yes. I would exhaust all possibilities of using a third party component for this part of the task and look up the solution, because it is a well defined problem thats been solved several times." There was a bit more discussion where I justified my answer, explained exactly what I would research, and I solved some other parts of the question. In the end I was offered and accepted the job, partly because of knowing how to find out what I didn't know.
Being able to use references is as important as being able to code from memory. Obviously, if you are a one language shop, and want people proficient in that language,the person should be able to write a complete hello world app in notepad. Interview problems should focus on small problems, and one should not worry about small syntax errors. This is why a whiteboard is the best IDE for interview questions.
Unless you demand all your coders use notepad and don't give them internet access, don't be as concerned by the syntax. If you do sit them down in front of a computer, worry about the finished product as well as the technique used to get there.
I'm a PHP programmer in my early 30's. I rely on PHP's excellent documentation, for several reasons:
Programming concepts don't change. If I know what my object models are and how I want to manipulate data, then there's dozens of ways to implement the details. The details are important, but a better grasp of the design and structure is more important
PHP has notoriously inconsistent functions. One string function might use ($needle,$haystack) as parameters, and another might use ($haystack,$needle). Trying to keep them straight isn't worth the hassle when you can just type php.net/function_name and get the reference.
I don't rely on intellisense, simply because I haven't found a decent IDE for PHP that does it well. Eclipse is ok, but it's not fantastic. Netbeans gives me 'PHPDoc not found' for all the built-in PHP functions whenever I install it. There's nothing that I've found so far that beats out the documentation.
The bottom line is that the ability to memorize functions isn't indicative of coding ability. Obviously there's a key set of basic functions that a good programmer will know just from extensive usage over time, but I wouldn't base a hiring decision on whether someone knows substr_replace vs. str_replace from memory.
Because I've read either the documentation, or articles, or a book on a subject, the things I learn on a topic are organized. The result is that, if I can't bring something up from memory, I can probably find it quickly through IntelliSense or the Object Browser.
Worse come to worst, I can pick up the book again; something these youngsters are not being taught to do.
John Saunders
Age 51
Pretty much Google + Old Projects + my memory (of course)
References will not solve your problems though, its only for the nuts and bolts, the higher level of problem solving is the actual "programming" part IMHO.
I tend to use Intellisense and Resharper much more than I used to before, but this has helped my overall productivity. If I can get the idea of how I want to solve something and then use tools to get the more boring parts like class names and function signatures, why shouldn't I use the tools I have? I feel relieved that Jon Skeet has a similar approach it seems.
I rely on my bookmarks and books... and my ability to use them effectively. I have multiple books above my desk, including a copy of the ISO C90 standard. Moreover, I use Xmarks to have access to my bookmarks wherever I go. Sometimes, I make a pdf out of a particular page and upload it to my web-site if it is important enough.
Sometimes the information provided by the resources I use makes its way into my terrible memory... maybe.
Closed. This question is off-topic. It is not currently accepting answers.
Want to improve this question? Update the question so it's on-topic for Stack Overflow.
Closed 10 years ago.
Improve this question
During hiring a .NET web developer I give the candidate a coding test.
I tend to limit the candidate to MSDN installed on the test server - I think it holds everything the candidate needs to complete the task.
I admit, this is not the normal case as I don't expect the candidate to do his work without use of the web.
On the other hand I don't want the candidate to google for a complete example and copy-paste it, i want to evaluate his skills.
The question is do I need to allow free use of the web during the test?
If you think the whole coding test is wrong - I would like to hear alternatives you may have for me.
As you say, 'I don't expect the candidate to do his work without use of the web' why not allow it too during the test? And what if he does copy and paste? I do that too. Surely the key is to know where to look, be discerning with what you find and apply it intelligently. Do you want to hire someone with a terrific memory or someone who can develop software for you?
When I was at school, calculators were just becoming affordable. As their use was seen as unavoidable, the exams were changed. Simple number-crunching was no longer tested in the way it was before (it was important then). Rather problem-solving techniques were to be tested.
I usually allow candidates to use whatever resources they want. After they're done, I sit down with them and go through their code together, ask questions like why they chose that particular approach etc.
If a couple of minutes of Googling was enough to not just copypaste some code but to learn enough about it to be able to defend the decisions within, then he's intelligent enough!
There are tests, where web access can be given, and there are where it doesn't really make sense.
Case where its fine to allow web access
When its unlikely to find even 60 percent of the code over the net
When you will ask to explain the code after he/she completed the code
A very specific solution using SQL query, which is unlikely to be found on the web
Case where its fine to not allow web access
Some basic programs like, recurssion, fibonacci, factorial, string manipulation, small trick programs, etc. There is no need of computer even in some of these cases
I'm very sceptical about coding tests during interviews. I think that a lot of the test I have seen, represent very specific (artificial, non real-world) problems where you would use the internet to solve them.
I think it's not really important to know how to solve such problems by heart - often time it is much more important that you know how and where to search for answers.
If you want to test the persons during the interview, I think it is better to ask them some conceptual questions instead of a specific programming problem. E.g: questions about object orientation, polymorphism, design of n-tier application, etc. etc.
Or as an example from the ASP.NET world, ask the interviewed person question such as: what is ViewState, what is a postback, what is session-/application-state, etc.
If you want to get an idea of how a candidate will perform in a job, I think it's best to try and make the conditions of the test as close as possible to the actual working conditions.
It should be pretty easy to prevent copy-and-pasters from slipping through the cracks by asking the candidate to explain his/her code.
Well, one thing you want to be aware of is that the developer you hire might not know everything that he will be thrown during the time he is working for you. If you ask him a question that he doesn't know off the top of his head you would want and expect him to research it and come back to you with proof that he understood the concepts that he just learned.
I say let them use the web - but ask them to explain in their own words how their code works. Most of my knowledge comes from online resources. However, I make sure that every line of code I write I understand.
There is a baseline knowledge that developers in a particular field should know; but you also want to figure out how quickly he can learn new things. A good test IMO is to throw a question you know he doesn't know and see how long he can figure it out using the resources he would have if he were an employee of your company.
Is your goal to see what basic knowledge the candidate has and if he can code without copying solutions from the web, then don't allow internet access. If you want to see what strategies he employs to get to a solution, let him use the web if he wants to.
I personally find it more interesting if a candidate can solve problems on a larger scale than just solving a simple programming problem. So I tend to ask him about the methods he uses when programming (Unit testing? Ever worked with it? What do you think of it?). This gives me a better picture than coding in an interview situation.
Sometimes it helps if you ask the candidates beforehand to bring a one-page coding sample to take a look at their coding style. This also saves you time during the interview.
It's important to make sure a candidate is resourceful - you don't want your programmer sitting there when they get stuck, not moving forward; you want them to use whatever resources are at hand - be it MSDN, picking someone else's brains, using the web, etc - to get the job done. Cut-n-paste from the web does seem like cheating, but (a) if you design your task carefully then it will be unique enough for there not to be a standard answer they can copy from the web, and (b) isn't re-using existing code a key part of building software? It's not much different from using 3rd-party libraries, to avoid reinventing the wheel. On the downside, of course, you also want them to show they can develop algorithms, so the unique task needs to include some element that requires that without the solution already being on the web. Trouble is, forums are the achilles heel to all of that since they can simply ask for the solution and someone, somewhere, is going to hand over the answer unwittingly!
Allow the candidate to use the web but tell him beforehand that if he used the web, you will have to evaluate HOW he solved the problem.
If he used the web for something simple such as finding the syntax or parameters which he forgot, don't mark him down. This is normal.
If he used the web for something like look at how a specific function is used, don't mark him down. This is normal.
If he searched for a specific code and then copy-paste it, then ask him about how the code works. If he can explain how the code works, then there's no reason to mark him down. If he can't explain it without looking at the site where he got the code, you have to mark him down.
If he used stackoverflow.com, check his profile for questions, answers and badges. From there, you can check how good a programmer he is.
It all depends what you want out of your successful candidate. I contest the view that knowing how to google makes you a good programmer because the simple fact is that the internet is full of bad examples as well as good ones. You don't really want your codebase to reflect how lucky your googler was on the day he cut and pasted all his code off the web. You want it to demonstrate sound practices, proven methodologies & elegant, efficient solutions that your team understand and are enthusiastic about. Not a jumble of styles that don't resemble each other. There's a wealth of good to be gotten from knowing how to get help from the interweb but real knowledge and ancient wisdom is being lost every day that people who don't really understand what they are doing are given jobs because they appear to solve problems with their ability to "google it".
If you really want to give your candidates access to the web then by all means do, but make the questions hard and scrutinise the results to see if they've picked the first solution they found or if they've picked the best solution to the problem.
As do many other respondents, I'd rather employ a resourceful developer who know how to use the web to the fullest to draw on other's experiences and previous work, than a developer who limits himself and his applications to the MSDN way of doing things.
I copy other peoples code all the time - daily in fact. The knack of it depends on finding the right solution quickly and integrating it into your existing work.
So let your candidate use the web and ask him how he came to his solutions. You might learn more about him from his methods than from how will he can remember previous solutions.
Three things I'd do.
Let applicants send in a coding example along with their cv.
Let applicants produce some real-life code (maybe even pair-program with a developer on your team) this will show you if they can actually use the tools. Internet is a tool too so they should be able to use internet.
Let applicants solve a problem in pseudo code on a blackboard during the interview. In this case you can be their "internet" by helping them.
These three approaches will show you different things. The first is a good early warning mechanism but can easily be faked (they could just download oss code from the web somewhere). The second is good to see if they can actually code but they might score badly if they're unfamiliar with the tools you use. The third will show you if they can solve theoretical problems but won't show you if they actually are good team players or if they write maintainable code.
I recently had a friend start talking to me on IM, he was in a coding test job interview. He had a couple SQL questions. At first i thought, hell you've got to do this yourself. I'm not going to help you cheat during an interview.
Then i thought about it again. I've been answering questions and talking to him about various technical issues for years on IM as part of his work. So when he encounters problems in the real world with the job if he gets hired, he'll do the same thing.
We don't talk about it much, but having a good network of friends to ask questions, and knowing how to search out relevant answers on the net are a big part of being an effective programmer or sysadmin. I've met people who were super smart programmers, but didn't really know how to find information online. They missed a lot, were kind of out of the loop. Knowing how to use resources should be important.
When i do interviews i often ask people what websites they read, what development tools they use, and why. It's a similar thing. Sure it's not about how they write x line of code, but it's about how they work.
No how to get around somebody just copy and pasting "answers". Well first, don't ask questions which have pat answers. Secondly when i'm interviewing i like to give people some code, ask them to refactor it, have them talk through what they are thinking. Then ask them to write some new code which implements a feature. Pair program with them. It's hard to hide inability to code when pair programming. While they are pairing, it totally makes sense to say, "let's go look up the api on the date time library."
Everyone I work with is obsessed with the data-centric approach to enterprise development and hates the idea of using custom collections/objects. What is the best way to convince them otherwise?
Do it by example and tread lightly. Anything stronger will just alienate you from the rest of the team.
Remember to consider the possibility that they're onto something you've missed. Being part of a team means taking turns learning & teaching.
No single person has all the answers.
If you are working on legacy code (e.g., apps ported from .NET 1.x to 2.0 or 3.5) then it would be a bad idea to depart from datasets. Why change something that already works?
If you are, however, creating a new apps, there a few things that you can cite:
Appeal to experiencing pain in maintaining apps that stick with DataSets
Cite performance benefits for your new approach
Bait them with a good middle-ground. Move to .NET 3.5, and promote LINQ to SQL, for instance: while still sticking to data-driven architecture, is a huge, huge departure to string-indexed data sets, and enforces... voila! Custom collections -- in a manner that is hidden from them.
What is important is that whatever approach you use you remain consistent, and you are completely honest with the pros and cons of your approaches.
If all else fails (e.g., you have a development team that utterly refuses to budge from old practices and is skeptical of learning new things), this is a very, very clear sign that you've outgrown your team it's time to leave your company!
Remember to consider the possibility that they're onto something you've missed. Being part of a team means taking turns learning & teaching.
Seconded. The whole idea that "enterprise development" is somehow distinct from (and usually the implication is 'more important than') normal development really irks me.
If there really is a benefit for using some technology, then you'll need to come up with a considered list of all the pros and cons that would occur if you switched.
Present this list to your co workers along with explanations and examples for each one.
You have to be realistic when creating this list. You can't just say "Saves us lots of time!!! WIN!!" without addressing the fact that sometimes it is going to take MORE time, will require X months to come up to speed on the new tech, etc. You have to show concrete examples where it will save time, and exactly how.
Likewise you can't just skirt over the cons as if they don't matter, your co-workers will call you on it.
If you don't do these things, or come across as just pushing what you personally like, nobody is going to take you seriously, and you'll just get a reputation for being the guy who's full of enthusiasm and energy but has no idea about anything.
BTW. Look out for this particular con. It will trump everything, unless you have a lot of strong cases for all your other stuff:
Requires 12+ months work porting our existing code. You lose.
Of course, "it depends" on the situation. Sometimes DataSets or DataTables are more suited, like if it really is pretty light business logic, flat hierarchy of entities/records, or featuring some versioning capabilities.
Custom object collections shine when you want to implement a deep hierarchy/graph of objects that cannot be efficiently represented in flat 2D tables. What you can demonstrate is a large graph of objects and getting certain events to propagate down the correct branches without invoking inappropriate objects in other branches. That way it is not necessary to loop or Select through each and every DataTable just to get the child records.
For example, in a project I got involved in two and half years ago, there was a UI module that is supposed to display questions and answer controls in a single WinForms DataGrid (to be more specific, it was Infragistics' UltraGrid). Some more tricky requirements
The answer control for a question can be anything - text box, check box options, radio button options, drop-down lists, or even to pop up a custom dialog box that may pull more data from a web service.
Depending on what the user answered, it can trigger more sub-questions to appear directly under the parent question. If a different answer is given later, it should expose another set of sub-questions (if any) related to that answer.
The original implementation was written entirely in DataSets, DataTables, and arrays. The amount of looping through the hundreds of rows for multiple tables was purely mind-bending. It did not help the programmer came from a C++ background attempting to ref everything (hello, objects living in the heap use reference variables, like pointers!). Nobody, not even the originally programmer, could explain why the code is doing what it does. I came into the scene more than six months after this, and it was stil flooded with bugs. No wonder the 2nd-generation developer I took over from decided to quit.
Two months of tying to fix the chaotic mess, I took it upon myself to redesign the entire module into an object-oriented graph to solve this problem. yeap, complete with abstract classes (to render different answer control on a grid cell depending on question type), delegates and eventing. The end result was a 2D dataGrid binded to a deep hierarchy of questions, naturally sorted according to the parent-child arrangement. When a parent question's answer changed, it would raise an event to the children questions and they would automatically show/hide their rows in the grid according to the parent's answer. Only question objects down that path were affected. The UI responsiveness of this solution compared to the old method was by orders of magnitude.
Ironically, I wanted to post a question that was the exact opposite of this. Most of the programmers I've worked with have gone with the custom data objects/collections approach. It breaks my heart to watch someone with their SQL Server table definition open on one monitor, slowly typing up a matching row-wrapper class in Visual Studio in another monitor (complete with private properties and getters-setters for each column). It's especially painful if they're also prone to creating 60-column tables. I know there are ORM systems that can build these classes automagically, but I've seen the manual approach used much more frequently.
Engineering choices always involve trade-offs between the pros and cons of the available options. The DataSet-centric approach has its advantages (db-table-like in-memory representation of actual db data, classes written by people who know what they're doing, familiar to large pool of developers etc.), as do custom data objects (compile-type checking, users don't need to learn SQL etc.). If everyone else at your company is going the DataSet route, it's at least technically possible that DataSets are the best choice for what they're doing.
Datasets/tables aren't so bad are they?
Best advise I can give is to use it as much as you can in your own code, and hopefully through peer reviews and bugfixes, the other developers will see how code becomes more readable. (make sure to push the point when these occurrences happen).
Ultimately if the code works, then the rest is semantics is my view.
I guess you can trying selling the idea of O/R mapping and mapper tools. The benefit of treating rows as objects is pretty powerful.
I think you should focus on the performance. If you can create an application that shows the performance difference when using DataSets vs Custom Entities. Also, try to show them Domain Driven Design principles and how it fits with entity frameworks.
Don't make it a religion or faith discussion. Those are hard to win (and is not what you want anyway)
Don't frame it the way you just did in your question. The issue is not getting anyone to agree that this way or that way is the general way they should work. You should talk about how each one needs to think in order to make the right choice at any given time. give an example for when to use dataSet, and when not to.
I had developers using dataTables to store data they fetched from the database and then have business logic code using that dataTable... And I showed them how I reduced the time to load a page from taking 7 seconds of 100% CPU (on the web server) to not being able to see the CPU line move at all.. by changing the memory object from dataTable to Hash table.
So take an example or case that you thing is better implemented differently, and win that battle. Don't fight the a high level war...
If Interoperability is/will be a concern down the line, DataSet is definitely not the right direction to go in. You CAN expose DataSets/DataTables over a service but whether you SHOULD or is debatable. If you are talking .NET->.NET you're probably Ok, otherwise you are going to have a very unhappy client developer from the other side of the fence consuming your service
You can't convince them otherwise. Pick a smaller challenge or move to a different organization. If your manager respects you see if you can do a project in the domain-driven style as a sort of technology trial.
If you can profile, just Do it and profile. Datasets are heavier then a simple Collection<T>
DataReaders are faster then using Adapters...
Changing behavior in an objects is much easier than massaging a dataset
Anyway: Just Do It, ask for forgiveness not permission.
Most programmers don't like to stray out of their comfort zones (note that the intersection of the 'most programmers' set and the 'Stack Overflow' set is the probably the empty set). "If it worked before (or even just worked) then keep on doing it". The project I'm currently on required a lot of argument to get the older programmers to use XML/schemas/data sets instead of just CSV files (the previous version of the software used CSV's). It's not perfect, the schemas aren't robust enough at validating the data. But it's a step in the right direction. The code I develop uses OO abstractions on the data sets rather than passing data set objects around. Generally, it's best to teach by example, one small step at a time.
There is already some very good advice here but you'll still have a job to convince your colleagues if all you have to back you up is a few supportive comments on stackoverflow.
And, if they are as sceptical as they sound, you are going to need more ammo.
First, get a copy of Martin Fowler's "Patterns of Enterprise Architecture" which contains a detailed analysis of a variety of data access techniques.
Read it.
Then force them all to read it.
Job done.
data-centric means less code-complexity.
custom objects means potentially hundreds of additional objects to organize, maintain, and generally live with. It's also going to be a bit faster.
I think it's really a code-complexity vs performance question, which can be answered by the needs of your app.
Start small. Is there a utility app you can use to illustrate your point?
For instance, at a place where I worked, the main application had a complicated build process, involving changing config files, installing a service, etc.
So I wrote an app to automate the build process. It had a rudimentary WinForms UI. But since we were moving towards WPF, I changed it to a WPF UI, while keeping the WinForms UI as well, thanks to Model-View-Presenter. For those who weren't familiar with Model-View-Presenter, it was an easily-comprehensible example they could refer to.
Similarly, find something small where you can show them what a non-DataSet app would look like without having to make a major development investment.
Closed. This question is opinion-based. It is not currently accepting answers.
Want to improve this question? Update the question so it can be answered with facts and citations by editing this post.
Closed 5 years ago.
Improve this question
I work on a complex application where different teams work on their own modules with a degree of overlap. A while back we got a Mediawiki instance set up, partly at my prompting. I have a hard job getting people to actually use it, let alone contribute.
I can see a lot of benefit in sharing information. It may at least reduce the times we reinvent the wheel.
The wiki is not very structured, but I'm not sure that is a problem as long as you can search for what you need.
Any hints?
Some tips:
Any time someone sends information by email that really should be in a wiki, make a page for that topic and add what they put in the email. Then reply "Thanks for that info, I've put it into the wiki here so that it's easier to find in the future."
Likewise, if you have information you need to share that should be in the wiki, put it there and just send an email with a link to it, rather than email people.
When you ask people for information, phrase it so that putting such documentation in the wiki should be considered the default or standard: "I searched in the wiki but I couldn't find it. Have you put that info up there yet?"
If you are the "wiki champion", make sure other people know how to use it, e.g. "Did I go through how to create a new page with you yet?"
Edit the sidebar to make sure it is relevant to your work.
Use "nav box" style templates on related pages for easier navigation.
Put something like {{Special:NewPages/5}} on the front page, or recent changes, so that people can see the activity.
Take a peek at Recent changes every few days or week, and if you notice someone adding information without being prodded, send them an email or drop by and give them a little compliment.
As I mentioned before, a Wiki is very unorganized.
However, if that is the only argument from your developers, then invest some effort to create a simple index page and keep it updated (either do it yourself or ask people to link their contributions to the index). That way, the Wiki might grow into a very nice and quite comprehensive collection of documentation for all your work.
We've been using a wiki in some form or another for a while now, but it does take a while for people to get on board. You might find that you will be the only one writing articles for some time, but bear with it, other people will come on board eventually.
If someone sends an email around that contains information related to the project then helpfully point them in the direction of the wiki - and keep doing that - they should get the hint.
We have a SharePoint portal and use the wiki from there - we customised it with our own branding so that it "looks the part" - I really feel this has helped to improve the uptake of it.
Make sure that everyone is aware that the wiki is even more informal than email.... because there will be a "fear factor" that people may think anything they add to the wiki will be over-analysed.
I think most of the answers so far are spot on - the more you plug away at it yourself, the larger the body of useful information will become, so slowly but surely people will naturally start to use it.
The other approach you could use is this: Suggest that every time someone asks another team member a question about the project, they should answer the question as normal, but also add the answer to a section of the Wiki. This may take a few minutes extra, but it will mean that the next time someone asks the same question (which they inevitably will), you can save time by pointing them at the Wiki. This, in turn, should help people to start using the Wiki as a first source of information and help overall up-take.
You can't force developers to do something they do not have an incentive of using for; unfortunately wikis, like documentation (well, in fact wikis are documentation) rarely have any "cool" value for developers. Besides, they're already deep into dev work -- could you really bother them with a wiki?
That being said, the people who pushed for the wiki (e.g., you) should be primarily responsible for updating it, and you really would have a lot of work cut out for you if you're serious about it.
You might also try the ff:
It's not very structured you say -- a lot of people get turned off from ill-structured (hard-to-search/browse) wikis. So maybe you can fix that first
Maybe you can ask lead developers/project managers to populate it with things that are issues for them: things like code conventions and API design for your particular project
Lead by example: religiously document your part of the system. Setting a precedent may encourage others to do the same
Sell the idea of using the wiki to the developers. You've identified some benefits, share those with the developers. If they can see that they'll get something of value out of it they'll start using it.
Example advantages from What Is a Wiki
Good for writing down quick ideas or longer ones, giving you more time for formal writing and editing.
Instantly collaborative without emailing documents, keeping the group in sync.
Accessible from anywhere with a web connection (if you don't mind writing in web-browser text forms).
Your archive, because every page revision is kept.
Exciting, immediate, and empowering--everyone has a say.
I have done some selling and even run some training sessions. I think some people are turned off by the lack of WYSIWYG editing and ability to paste formatted text from Word or Outlook. I know there are some tools to work around these, but they are still barriers.
There are some areas where the wiki is being used to log certain areas, but people who update those are not doing anything else with it.
I will use the wiki to document my specialised area regardless as it acts as a convenient brain extension. When starting a new development I use it as a notepad for ideas that I can expand on as it progresses.
It would help if management would give it some vocal support, even if it is not made mandatory.
I have a hard job getting people to actually use it, let alone contribute.
One of the easiest ways to get people to contribute to a wiki, is to actually have them provide contents in a wiki-suitable fashion, i.e. so that whatever they post using their usual channels of communications (newsgroups, mailing lists, forums, issue trackers, chat), is basically suitable for inclusion on the wiki.
So that others (users/volunteers) can simply take such contents and put them on the wiki.
This sounds more complicated than it really is, it's mostly about generalizing questions and answers, so that they are not necessarily part of a conversation, but can be comprehensible, meaningful and useful in a standalone fashion.
For example a question like the following:
how do I get git to clone a remote repository???
Can be answered like this:
Hello,
Just use git clone git://...
But questions can also be answered in a less personal style:
In order to clone a git repository, you will want to use the clone parameter to git:
git clone git://....
What I am trying to say is that most discussions in a project can and should be easily used to become documentation eventually. With this sort of mindset, your documentation can actually grow rather rapidly. You only need to get people to keep in mind that useful information should be ideally provided in a fashion that is suitable for wiki inclusion.
I have witnessed several instances where open source projects started to use this approach to some extent and while some people (largely new users) complained that answers were not very personal, the body of documentation was increasing steadily, because other people simply monitored such discussions and started to copy/paste such responses to the wiki.
Basically, this is one of the easiest ways to get people to contribute to a wiki, without requiring them to actually use it themselves, the only thing that's required of them is a shift in thinking.
If the developers still need to maintain 'real' documentation (s.a. Word documents), I see no way to meaningfully duplicate that on a Wiki.
It does not make sense for people to write twice
Any duplicated data is prone to get out of sync, soon.
What my current customer has done is move all this to Wiki. So I only document once, and I do it on the Wiki.
This is okay. Working with Wiki is more tedious than with Word, but at least the doc is online and others can mix-and-match with it.
Another working solution (imho) would be to store docs alongside the source, on subversion. But then the merging system needs to be able to cope with rich text etc. as well. I don't know, if any solution for that exists (other than using HTML or LaTex, which actually would not be bad picks).
Find "sticky" items (sub-3 pg. docs / diagrams / etc) something that the team seems to be creating again and again & post it on the wiki. Make sure everyone has access to the wiki and knows its there - set up a notification mechanism if possible. With some luck, the next time they have to access, rather than dig it out of version control or their machines - they should hit the wiki.
If they still don't, try to see if the team has enough slack to actually use the wiki - Subtler issues may lie beneath their reluctance.
Take a look at the advice at http://www.ikiw.org/ Grow your Wiki
Just to add to some of the excellent advice being offered here...
As a dev in a small company that does largely gov't contract work in the 6-24 month range, I find that my time is often split between development and writing status reports (right up there with writing documentation, only worse!) Having a wiki to slap down unorganized thoughts and notes as we go along has made report-writing a lot less painful (not pain-LESS, but better all the same).
Further, if you're already in the Mediawiki world, you might want to look at SemanticMediawiki. It allows you to take the organization of your data to another level by semantically tagging it. That doesn't mean a lot on its own, I know, but I can tell you (for example) that it can drastically improve the relevance of the data returned from searches. It is definitely worth a look.
Generally good advice here. I'd like to add:
You really need a champion - someone pushing this to developers and management (without being pushy - that's a challenge!) and providing support & tutorials when possible. This person also needs to be a peer (so a fellow developer, not someone in a remote IT department) and really customer focused i.e. ready to make changes when requested.
Speaking of changes, some people here say wikis are unstructured. I disagree. Our MediaWiki installation is structured using categories, particularly with two extensions:WarnNoCategories (to require users to add a category when saving a page) and CategoryTree to show how all the categories fit together (this can be linked to from the sidebar). I've got more tips on how we keep this low threshold, if you're interested.