Can one learn programming in VB.net using Visual Studio (Winforms stuff) and never learn what a console "hello world" looks like or how, in code, to change which part of the program starts at execution (and other basic things like that) and still be a successful VB.net programmer? Or are there roadblocks just waiting there to be hit?
Successful? Probably.
Good? No.
I'm sure you can, but I don't think it's a good idea. You'd probably pick up the core ideas through trial and error - but you may well end up with plenty of misconceptions, and you'll probably waste a lot of time in that trial and error phase.
I'd thoroughly recommend learning core concepts first. Apart from anything else, UI development is full of its own little foibles - if you don't know the core stuff to start with, you won't know whether you've hit a UI gotcha or whether your core knowledge is lacking.
Depends on what you are doing with the programs. If you are just programming little tools for yourself to use, then there is probably no harm. For hobby projects you can know as little as you want. However, if you are programming as a job, you should have a much better grasp at what is going on. You may be able to fake your way through for a while, but eventually somebody is going to ask you to do something that should be simple, but because of your limited knowledge of programming is utterly impossible. Then you will know why you have to know the basics.
That being said, there's a lot of programmers out there in the real world with exactly that level of knowledge who do have jobs. Personally, I think it's a bad idea, but you can't argue with the market. If these people have jobs, there must be a real market need for this type of programmer. Kind of goes along with what Welbog said. You can be successful in that you can hold down a job. But you still won't be a good programmer.
It depends what you mean by success really.
It's entirely possible to write a decent winforms application without writing console apps and without changing the starting form from the default.
When it comes to crafting well written applications in a professional way, you're likely to find requirements that mean using a boot strapper (which will control the initial flow) so at that point you'll definitely need to do some research.
Related
My company is planning to build a simulation tool for processing (beverage) and we're currently looking at a half-baked system written in Xojo. I had personally never heard of this language and would appreciate it if anyone could give a quick assessment.
We have no in-house Xojo competence at all and are of course reluctant to bring in a system that would require a big investment in know-how for just one system.
So, we're now looking at our options: Port it to a language we're good at (C# or Java) or continue development in Xojo while building internal skills for the language.
So, what are the big pro's and con's with Xojo?
Cheers
Xojo has been around since the late 1990s, then named RealBasic. Its strength lies in its ability to make native looking and behaving apps for many platforms, mainly OS X but also Win and even Linux. The dev community is fairly small, though. But the company managed to stay in business all this time and isn't looking to end it any time soon.
The language is fairly simple and easy to learn, using long known concepts (its design was based on Visual Basic).
Knowing Java, it should be easy to grasp the language. The bigger hurdle is probably getting familiar with its libary. Many things are much simpler to accomplish in Xojo vs Java, though.
Call me lazy, but that's what I like about Xojo. I also program ObjC in Xcode, but for those little tools that just need to work quickly, Xojo is superior for whipping out a program quickly that that has a decent UI and works on many platforms with little to no tweaks.
If you need x-platform support, give it a try, for sure. If you only need the app to run on a single platform, and if you have skills with other dev systems, I'd advise against starting out with Xojo, to avoid the risks you get when going with such a small company that's offering closed-source software.
In your particular case where you have already a half-working solution, I suggest you take a few days to familiarize yourself to get a feeling for it (you can use Xojo for free as long as you don't build standalone apps with it). It's overall fairly stable and I'm still using a 3-year old version most of the time to develop and build my apps. So, even if Xojo should go out of business suddenly, I'd not be too worried. As long as you stick with the simple functionality (e.g. not use unique features such as XojoScript), you can still convert the app to another language later, but there's also a fair chance you never have to.
If you are looking for someone to take a look at your Xojo project I'd recommend posting on the Xojo Find A Developer page at http://www.xojo.com/support/consultants.php where all Pro developers get it. The consultants that want to talk to you about it will then contact you. (Full disclosure: we, BKeeney Software, are on the list and would be happy to help you figure it all out).
I have worked a lot on improving how my code runs (and it's "beauty"), but when is the time to stop fixing, and start working on the UI?
Microsoft (in my opinion) seems to go with the nice-code, while Apple goes with nice UI (although Apple's developer examples do have very nice code).
I'm bad at balancing, when is it the time to work on one or the other?
Make it work, then make it elegant, then make it fast.
If the user doesn't like the program, the quality of the code is irrelevant. Once the user likes the program, then code quality becomes more important. And by "like" I mean a good user experience where the program doesn't crash, fulfills the need that the user has and adhere's to the Principle of Least Surprise.
Note I say "more important" because code is not something the user sees or is interested in. Code quality and "beauty" is important to developers because it's what they see of the program and what they hand over to other developers.
I remember reading something some time ago comparing (in general terms) software developed for the windows platform and software developed for OS X. In general terms it said that windows programs tended to be developed by developers who didn't spend too much time on the UI or thinking about the user experience. Their concentration was getting every piece of functionality they could think of into the program without any thought about it making sense. Mac OS X on the other hand tended to be developed by people concentrating on the user experience first and solving their problems. So it didn't necessarily have as much functionality, but what it did have was directly associated with what the user needed and was easy to use.
So when is it time to stop and think about the UI? The fact that you have asked the question makes me think it's time to stop right now. If anything I'd suggest that even before writing any code you should have drawn out a basic UI and worked out what sort of user experience your program is going to provide If you cannot work that out, you don't want to wasting time writing code because you will never use it.
Thats not to say I think code "beauty" is irrelevant. I spend time on making sure my code is well written, easy to follow and looks "good". But that's after I've figured out the UI and because I've had a lot of experience with cleaning up other people aweful code :-)
This is an incredibly broad question, and the answer is entirely a function of what you're building, why, and for whom.
Some random bits of conventional wisdom that I agree with:
If you're building broadly-applicable consumer software (e.g. for Mac or iOS), then the UI is a critical component of the application. Spend lots of time on it. :) Work with designers. If your software looks like crap, no one will want to use it. (Assuming nobody's going to make them: see next point.)
If you're building internal or enterprise tools, UI polish is probably less important.
Even if you're a one-man (or woman) operation, think of engineering as distinct from "product management". Product management is the thought process that determines what the software should do, and how it should work (and look). Engineering creates the reality, but has different tradeoffs. These are sometimes in conflict, which is hard to handle if you're one person, but try to wear different hats.
In all cases, your code should work, for some reasonable definition of work.
If it's ugly because it's hacked together, you're likely to run into accuracy/correctness problems sooner than if you construct it methodically. It will also be harder to maintain. The tradeoff here is almost never worth it. As you gain experience, you'll more naturally write clean code from the start, even if it's "scratch" code. You'll save time in the long run this way, and not be faced with later wholesale attempts to improve its beauty.
If you're on a team, or working with others, clean code is even more important. Find out if there are any "local" coding conventions, and work closely with colleagues.
As far as improving "how code runs", if you mean performance optimization, don't do any of that until you're sure you need to. Write the simpler code first, even if it's slower. It's likely that it won't be slow enough to matter.
Special case: if you're writing a game, long-term maintainability is less important, because they tend to be "throwaway" at some level. YMMV.
In 2002 I did a pretty large VB6 app for a client. It used a lot of UserControls and a 3rd party menu control (for putting icons next to menu names). It had dynamically "splittable" panels, TreeViews with multi-state checkboxes, etc. A very rich UI. My total time on the project was about 500 hours, which the client graciously let me spread over a whole month. (Yeah, it was that kind of job.) They were very happy, though, and they paid the bill on time with no argument.
So after having no contact with them for years, they suddenly call and wonder if I can update the app to .Net for them. My initial reaction is just to decline, since I don't use VB.Net. And having read a bunch of posts on SO about the difficulties of porting, etc., etc., I'm even more inclined to decline, so to speak.
Still, before I tell them no I am interested in roughly quantifying the effort it would take. I would love to hear from anyone who has done this kind of thing and has a feel for how much work it is. Was it:
Significantly less than the effort you used on the original?
Somewhat less than the effort you used on the original?
The same as the effort you used on the original?
More?
A lot more?
Please only respond if you have actually done this kind of port. And the answer doesn't have to be exact, since I really am only trying to ballpark this. My feeling is that the effort will be at least as much as it took for the original, if not more. But I could be wrong. Thanks for any help.
I have done what you've been asked. In my case it was an (amateur) bowling tournament mgmt system: Member database mgmt (personal info, IRS/Winnings info, mailing lists etc etc etc) , tournament mgmt (player assignments, scoring, lane ticket generation, check register for winnings and side-pots, etc etc etc) as well as IRS EDI generation for all winners in a given year. Plus about a billion little items scattered across ~ 50 screens/sub-screens.
The key is CLIENT UNDERSTANDING -- You must be clear that they understand that this is not trivial; this is a new adventure for BOTH of you (particularly if you are a new-comer to VB.Net) If they liked your work before then they may very well give you the leeway/freedom to learn VB.Net on their nickel.
Reading some of the previous answers let me make a few suggestions (based upon 30 years experience as a software developer, the last 20 of which as a consultant....)
TAKE THEIR MONEY IF THEY OFFER IT. You need to bring your skillset into the 20th century; let them pay for it (again, if they agree.) They may be Magazine surfing and want "the latest stuff" for NO GOOD REASON -- but maybe they realize that they can extend the life of (your) application by this port. In essence they may have all kinds of goofy reasons for doing it... if they are NOT hiring you to DECIDE whether or not this port is a good idea. Then you may express any dismay you have about the decision PROCESS out of good client relationship building; BUT if they want to do this then it might as well be your job.
Take all this mumbo-jumbo re: C# vs VB.Net with a grain of salt. I have worked EXCLUSIVELY in VB.Net / ASPX.net (vs C#) since its inception and have yet to come across ANY functionality NOT attainable in VB.Net. There are some 'purists' out there that just view VB.Net as a toy. Well, I came from the days of writing in Assembler, then C, then C++ (And you can throw in Fortran, PL1 for good measure) then VB5, then 6, then VB.Net ... and NOW JAVA for Android. Its ALL GOOD FUN... and each has it merits and drawbacks. Remember that C# and VB.Net are essentially just GUIs to achieve a meta-language intermediate. You can write a TERRIBLE (as measured by efficiency or memory use or whatever metric you choose!) Program in C# and a great one in VB.Net (and vice-versa.) DO NOT EQUATE GOOD PROGRAMMING WITH LANGUAGE SYNTAX. (... C# is "superior" ???? Gimme a break.)
I chose to allow the Visual Studio do most of the heavy lifting for the first pass. Then you go through the gazzillion errors and clean it up. It goes pretty fast.
BUT you need to decide whether or not to take advantage of any framework benefits that you had hand-coded in VB6. E.G. looping through a string to locate a specific character(s) is now as simple as The_String.IndexOf("c") I found that in my case I went through the code several times and took better and better advantage of the Class (i.e. object orientation) as well as framework goodies as I became comfortable... this adds to your development time (see CLIENT UNDERSTANDING mantra) BUT your code WILL BE MORE Efficient then it ever could have been in VB6. You could simply port to get the errors out and not take ANY advantage necessarily from the framework.
I have not found any issue with 3rd party active-x controls. You can add a reference to FRAMEWORK objects, COM objects, etc. It may even be likely that the control vendor has a .Net (managed code) version... OR there may be suitable alternatives since you wrote the thing in VB6. (See CLIENT UNDERSTANDING mantra)
So if your still reading, then now I will finally tell you that the second attempt at my application in VB.Net CONVERTED/PORTED from VB6 was ~ 1/3 of the original time to get to a working model... and I was learning the framework as well. (If your confident in your skill set, have learned a few languages through the years you will get the gist of VB.Net quickly --- its the SUBTLETIES that take awhile.)
I must caution you that the thing that can REALLY kill you if you do not preach the CLIENT UNDERSTANDING well enough is if they want to make changes WHILE you're porting (and this is VERY LIKELY since they've been using it for awhile... I was very true in my case as well.
There is no hard and fast rule here. It could be that changes will actually HELP YOU get to a better understanding the framework faster OR changes could be a real pain. Only you can determine which flavor they might be. AND if they look to be the PAINFUL type -- you might ask to do the conversion first so that you have reliably reproduced the functionality -- THEN go back and review the code to make changes and take advantage of the framework as necessary. But, as I said, there is NO Hard and Fast rules here -- and don't let the purists tell you differently --- remember they are probably the same guys that said that PASCAL was going to take over the world!
So after having no contact with them for years, they suddenly call and wonder if I can update the app to .Net for them.
You need to ask why they want this done.
It's a Bad Plan(tm) for clients to be making technical decisions on a whim. Before applying any solution, thoroughly understand their needs and their problem. Only after you understand the problem as they do should you make recommendations.
It could be that they're infatuated with a buzzword and want to be using the latest thing, or it could be any of a million other things. The solution to their problem could be something really easy, but if you don't find out what their problem is, you will never know the best way to solve that problem.
I would plan on it taking about 50% of the time and effort it took to create it in the first place.
I have done EXACTLY what you are asking about for a commercial software product that consisted of roughly 500 kloc. We balanced the desire for refactoring with the desire to get something working and released as quickly as possible.
It took nearly the entire team about 1 full year to get it done...for a product that took 4 years to create in the first place. It was a gigantic undertaking..not to be underestimated.
We are doing that exact thing right now, however it's slightly different. Instead of one huge application, there are many smaller ones. However, there are a few bigger ones in the list. What we found out is that it was significantly less work than we originally thought. BUT...the biggest unknowns had to do with third-party controls we had. If you have a lot of those to basically redesign, you will probably be looking at more work.
The one good suggestion I have is to use Visual Studio 2008 for the conversion (not VS 2005). There were far less problems when using the built-in converter in VS 2008 than there was with VS 2005. Not sure why, it just was that way.
So, I can't say that you won't spend 500 hours again, but most likely not. Most of your time should be spent on testing to verify no functionality was lost.
In my opinion,
Visual Basic 6 and Visual Basic .NET are so different that you should forget about their coincidence in their name, and treat this as a migration to .NET =P
I think that you have one big advantage and one disadvantage:
Advantage: you allready know what the application has to do. Probably you´ll have some meetings with your clients, in order to add some modifications or new features, but you have the major part of the requirements very clear. You´ll even have the old working application to see while you, or your team, are coding.
Disadvantage: you´ll have to learn a new language. Saying how much time is going to take, is very subjective. I´ve allways thought that learning a new language is not the problem, the big problem would be if you have to learn to program!. But you do know to program. You´ll know what you want to do, and you´ll have only to search how to do it in the new languaje.
Since you have to learn .NET, If you have to estimate, I think that you should suppose that it will take you at least the same as the previous application, even more.
My advice is too take the chance to learn this new language. And if you are more inclined to decline the project, let me give you another idea... Maybe you could estimate a little module of your application, and tell the client that you´ll try to do that module, to see how much it takes to you. The client should pay this little module, even if you decide not to continue.
You can´t tell the client that you know all the requirements, so they are saving money with you, in some way. And that they should take this little risk (we are talking about a little module), because who better than you to make the project, you know the old application perfectly!
If the client is right with this, you´ll can take the decision with more arguments. And If finally you decide to continue, with this little module done, you can estimate the whole project better than before.
Sorry, my English isn´t very good, and probably I´ve made many gramatical errors.
EDIT grammar mistakes... =P
This is a huge topic.
You should take a look at MS' Free Book - Upgrading Microsoft Visual Basic 6.0 to Microsoft Visual Basic .NET.
Were you to rewrite from scratch, rather than simply try and port the previous application, it shouldn't take too long. VB.Net has some features that will make the new application build take shorter. As it seems that you don't know VB.Net already, what will take you the most time is learn how to do things the new way(tm).
I'd go for two months this time.
But seriously, that's probably not far off — or even low — because the client will have some reason for needing the port done. It won't be just a straight port - they'll want some "small little enhancement" that will blow the whole project up.
Additionally, I'd worry a bit about the third party controls. Most of the rest of it should convert okay, but there's sometimes an issue finding a good analog to a 3rd party control in .Net.
I'm also concerned that you don't use vb.net. If you're a c# user and wanted to re-implement that way you'd be fine, but otherwise this is a non-starter. VB.Net is just different enough from vb6 for you to get yourself into trouble.
Aside from all that, I would expect it to be less work this time than last, because you have a very explicit design laid out in front of you that you merely need to follow.
I maintain in-house business software for a living. Technologies included here are Java, Struts, Spring MVC, jsp, wicket, and a few others. I think it's time to branch out and learn something new.
I am hoping to show myself with a side project that writing code can, in fact, be fun (in some plane of the universe), and that I haven't wasted the past few years of my life doing something I can never love or have fun doing.
I'm thinking of having a fantasy-sport style web site - obviously much, much smaller with regards to features and all that. I was hoping I could get some recommendations for the newest or cleanest frameworks that will allow me to accomplish such a project. My goals are to work on following a real development process instead of just hacking a bunch of crap into an already crappy application on a daily basis. Also I will strive to follow best practices and create good, clean, understandable code that I don't shudder at the thought of having to modify. It's hard to do this at work, because the software I work on has already been developed by 50 guys from various continents that never took the time to design anything before jumping into coding.
I would need a simple database to store users and their picks for each event. Also at my job, the login security is all handled by another group completely. Do people usually write their own login systems from scratch, or are there open source utilities for that as well? I'd be interested in those, as my site will need to have a user login system, and be secure.
I had ruby and rails installed on my computer the last time I conjured up the motivation for this idea, but that was nixed by a hard drive crash. I figured before I just jumped straight to rails for this idea, that I would get a few other opinions off stack overflow to see if people liked something else that I didn't know about.
Also, if anyone has any good resources for how to think about OO design, I could brush up on that as well. I'm looking for anything that will help me to just think about the design from the start and how to get my thoughts into a diagram. I'd like it not to focus so much on patterns and other principles as much as just how to get started and actually put my thoughts in a professional document that I can use to build my project from. I tried to practice this prior to a card game that I wrote, and it got way too complicated way too fast, and the results ended up being not so great.
I’m more familiar with Django, although like you, the only frameworks I’ve really used are the Java/Struts/Spring/JSP, etc. The automatically generated administration interface in Django is amazing coming from these, and it comes with its own authentication system too.
Unless you’re especially predisposed against Python, I think you should give it a go.
Ruby on Rails, Python on Django, PHP on (not sure -- maybe Zend? or CakePHP?), are probably the most popular frameworks if I understand correctly that you want to learn a new language. If I misunderstood you, and you'd rather stick with Java, GWT seems pretty cool -- it's the only real way to avoid "explicitly" writing Javascript (if you DO want to learn and use some Javascript, I personally am in love with Dojo, but jQuery is substantially more popular: those are two good popular frameworks you should consider, though there are others of course, like for all languages I mentioned so far).
One advantage of picking Python and Django is that they work particularly well with Google App Engine (and with Dojo, too, thanks to the cool dojango project!) -- GAE supports JVM too, now, but it's supported Python for a much longer time and the Python side of it is more solid and complete at this time. So, if that's the technology stack you choose, you get to develop and deploy for free, on highly scalable infrastructure, at least until your app gets more than a few million page views per month -- and you really minimize your system adminsitration hassles, all you do is basically to code and write one simple configuration file.
For starters I should let you guys know what I'm trying to do. The project I'm working on has a requirement that requires a custom scripting system to be built. This will be used by non-programmers who are using the application and should be as close to natural language as possible. An example would be if the user needs to run a custom simulation and plot the output, the code they would write would need to look like
variable input1 is 10;
variable input2 is 20;
variable value1 is AVERAGE(input1, input2);
variable condition1 is true;
if condition1 then PLOT(value1);
Might not make a lot of sense, but its just an example. AVERAGE and PLOT are functions we'd like to define, they shouldn't be allowed to change them or really even see how they work. Is something like this possible with DLR? If not what other options would we have(start with ANTRL to define the grammar and then move on?)? In the future this may need to run using XBAP and WPF too, so this is also something we need to consider, but haven't seen much if anything on dlr & xbap. Thanks, and hopefully this all makes sense.
Lua is not an option as it is to different from what they are already accustomed to.
Ralf, its going to reactive, and to be honest the timeframe for when the results should get back to the user may be 1/100 of a second all the way up to 2 weeks or a month(very complex mathematical functions).
Basically they already have a system they purchased that does some of what they need, and included a custom scripting language that does what I mentioned above and they don't want to have to learn a new one, they basically just want us to copy it and add functionality. I think I'll just start with ANTRL and go from there.
Lua
it's small, fast, easy to embed, portable, extensible, and fun!
Lua is definitly the best choice for soft real-time system (like computer games).
See http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/ for detailed benchmarks.
However, last time I checked, Lua used a mark-and-sweep garbage collector which can lead to deadline-violation and non-deterministic jitter in real-time systems.
I believe that you could use theoretically use the DLR, but I'm unsure about support in an XBAP (partially trusted?) scenario.
If you host the DLR you would quickly be able to take advantage of IronRuby or IronPython scripting. You would want to look at these implementations when creating your own language implementation. If you post your question to the IronPython mailing list I'm sure you would get a better reply around the XBAP scenario, and some of the developers there created ToyScript.
What kind of real-time requirement are you trying to fulfill? Is the simulation a hard real-time simulation (some kind of hardware-in-the-loop simulation ==> deadline is less than 1/1000 second)?
Or do you want the scripting-system to be "reactive" to user-input ==> 1/10 should be sufficient.
I am no expert regarding MS DLR, but as far as I know, it does not support hard real-time systems. You may want to take a look at the real-time specification for Java (RTSJ)
Firstly I think that defining your own language is not the way to go.
Primarily because the biggest productivity gains you can get for programmers or non-programmers are the development tools. You (and 99.9% of the rest of us) are not going to write tools as good as what is out their.
Language design is hard.
Language support and documentation, also hard
I would recommend looking for a pre-built solution. If you could find a language that can lock down some functionality, that would be a good starting point. MatLab would be the first that comes to my mind.
Lastly, ditch the natural language part, BASIC, COBOL and YA-TDWTF-Lang all tried and failed at it.
Full disclosure: I work for a company that is developing a generalized domain specific language "system". It's targeted at data-in/text-out applications so it's not apropos and it's not yet to beta. The result is I'm somewhat knowledgeable and biased.